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Sigh, I guess you're right. The reason there is a dispraportionate number of blacks and hispanics in poverty is because they make excuses.
Man, do you know how to read?
I posted this in response to GoN above:
Well, I agree in theory with what your saying, but not entirely. There are a few reasons for this.
Numerically, whites make up a much larger percentage of poor people than do any other race. It is a dispraportionate majority, but it is a majority none the less.
Yet, on death row, black people still make up 42% of the inmates. They do not make up 42% of poor people.
So there is also a disparity there.
Overall, I believe that classism comes into effect much more than active racism in today's society. But I also believe that classism is simply the evolution of racism. Dispraportionate numbers of minorities are poor today because of racism yesterday.
The way you fix this isn't nessecarily by fixing the system, but by fixing society as a whole.
It's the same arguement I made in some threads a few months ago. And as long as minorities are being affected moreso than the anglo population of this country, I think it holds a valid point in these type of discussions.
Read that again, and tell me how I am claiming the white man is holding anyone down?
Sigh, I guess you're right. The reason there is a dispraportionate number of blacks and hispanics in poverty is because they make excuses.
You saying, "Dispraportionate numbers of minorities are poor today because of racism yesterday." leads me to believe that you still feel the white man is keeping minorities down.
BECAUSE OF RACISM YESTERDAY!
You're inability to comprehend what yesterday signifies leads me to believe I am arguing with a wall and should stop immediately
yes, but anything that happened years and years ago should no longer be used as an excuse for their poverty today.... there are no longer colored drinking fountains, bathrooms, sections...
So what did I say is BS Manny? Like I restated, I am specifficly talking about the penalty, not the justice system as a whole.
Of course the penalty is irreversible, that's the point of it. You seem to think capitol punishment is like the movie Judge Dread or something. People aren't executed on the spot. It takes a long time in some cases, and plenty of opportunity to hear appeals is given.
The argument that someone who is innocent may be put to death is a slippery slope. There have been a number of cases do ented where people have served decades behind bars, only to be released later or found not guilty in retrials from new eveidence findings. So if it is wrong to put someone to death who is actually not guilty, then what is it to keep someone behind bars for 40 years? Should we abolish prisons just be the chance that someone is innocent?
Wow. Excuses huh?
An excuse? The numbers are there. Minorities make up a disproportionate number of people in poverty. This is not up for debate. There must be a reason for this. Whether you feel it's because they are lazy, stupid, family factors, racial inequality, or a combination of any factors, there are reasons.
That civil rights acts were only passed 40 years ago. And had they been able to change society immediately, there would still be residual effects that segregation had. And they were not able to change society that fast.
If you feel that the policies of racial inequality in this country do not have effects that last several generations and then some, then I'm not going to get anywhere "debating" this with you. But then I'd love to have a legitimate reason as to why minorities represent a larger percentage of people in poverty than they do in the general population.
no, you are correct, minorities do make up a larger % of those in poverty... however, i feel they could get out of it by taking some initiative... 40 years is a long time to make something of yourself...
That’s the part that’s bull Chris. The ultimate penalty as the result of the not so ultimate system huh? They are inseparable parts of the same machine.
If you have a hot engine in car, yet the transmission sucks, the car is going to run like either way.
You mean they don't shoot people on the spot? HOLY !!! You've opened my eyes Chris. Yeah, I seem to think EXACTLY that.Of course the penalty is irreversible, that's the point of it. You seem to think capitol punishment is like the movie Judge Dread or something. People aren't executed on the spot. It takes a long time in some cases, and plenty of opportunity to hear appeals is given.
No Chris, what I seem to think, and I've already tried spelling this out for you, is that the death penalty is used in a flawed system, and one innocent death is far too many. You can't have it both ways, it's either a perfect system, or it's not.
Uh, how so? There have been a number of cases do ented where people have served decades behind bars, only to be released later or found not guilty in retrials from new eveidence findings. So if it is wrong to put someone to death who is actually not guilty, then what is it to keep someone behind bars for 40 years? Should we abolish prisons just be the chance that someone is innocent?[/QUOTE]The argument that someone who is innocent may be put to death is a slippery slope.
Yes, both are wrong, and both need to be fixed. But guess what, the guy who was behind bars for 40 years? He can be released can't he?
What’s up with the Tpark Technique of equating extreme views with the one I have?
I never said anything like that. And it's not a slippery slope to say that the risk of killing an innocent person if far worse than falsely imprisoning a person.Should we abolish prisons just be the chance that someone is innocent?
Still waiting for a reason.
Could it be, they've had a harder road due to the previous inequality?
BTW, yes, they could get out of it, and are doing so. That is not the issue here.
manny, you are living in a dream world if you think any system will ever be perfect... nothing will ever be perfect...
one good reason is they think like you..."all the years of racism are keeping me down"...
like i said earlier, internal vs external locus of control...
Yet the man fails to see my arguement against the death penalty.....
Ha, who knew the answer to these difficult societal questions was something so simple.
I'd love to see some research backing up your theory.
Manny, my statement was totally in regards to the death penalty. You CAN NOT change the focus of my statement. Link everything together all you want, but it's not what I was refering to.
No one has argued that the system is perfect. I think you're taking people's backing of the death penalty as them supporting an imperfect system.
Answer these questions for me.
Am I racist because I support the death penalty?
If the system was perfect would you support the death penalty?
If one person is put to death wrongly, does that justify one person being killed by a "lifer"?
like i said, no system is perfect. and you can't require any system to be perfect before you implement it. if you required perfection in anything before you would allow it to be put into use we'd have absolutely nothing....
you must never go to the hospital because they make mistakes too...
don't ever take your car to a mechanic, bc he could make a mistake too...
etc...
nothing is perfect, but that shouldn't stop it...
if someone kills, death is the perfect penalty...
what do you think is more appropriate?
No, the reason is (for hispanics) many haven't been here long enough to build anything for themselves. Those that have been here a long time have ample opportunity to make large incomes. Though don't get me started on size of families that knock down their quality of life. Large families and lots of kids are just part of hispanic culture and in an URBAN environment tons of kids are a hindrance rather than a help to the families financial situation.
As for blacks, the opportunites for them to advance are there, and they need to take advantage of them. Many already have. I personally believe in a hand up rather than a hand out though. People that earn money are much more likely to keep it than people that have it given to them through special cir stance. The black community also needs to work on making it cool to go to college and learn in school instead of labelling black kids that do those things sellouts. Curse the term "street cred".
Sounds like you'd rather have your hand on the switch.I personally believe in a hand up rather than a hand out though.
I think death is too good for some of the people that get that as punishment, true.
Am I pro death penalty? Not really. Am I opposed to it? It doesn't really matter. Would I kill someone who I found to be killing or attempting to kill one of my family or friends? Your bet your ass I would.
Would I do that 9 years later after the initial pain was gone?
Dunno.
When the death penalty becomes the result of a justice system without the chance of an error being so existant, or even so damn high, then you can seperate them. They are linked. Sure, it's great to have a healthy heart, but it doesn't matter worth a damn if your lungs don't work.
No you're not racist, and I haven't called you that. I said you supported a system that is racist. Even if you want to sit here and argue that there is no racism today, the people about to be exectuted on death row weren't tried today.Answer these questions for me.
Am I racist because I support the death penalty?
If the system was perfect would you support the death penalty?
If one person is put to death wrongly, does that justify one person being killed by a "lifer"?
Yeah, I'm sure that poor black man got GREAT representation 20 years ago. Woo!
Sure, in a perfect system, other than personal moral qualms, I'd support the death penalty.
You lecture me on seperating things, then you go and present me with that ridiculous last question of yours? I am linking 2 thinks that coexist and are very linked. The result of a system and that very system.
Then you come and ask me if someone being put to death falsely justifies someone being killed by a lifer. That doesn't make sense, but I think you were trying to say that killing innocent people on death row is a risk you take to try and prevent people who are in and out of prison commiting murder.
So I ask YOU once again Chris, why do you go to extremes? What, there's no middle ground? There's no other way to prevent people from being killed except by killing the people you think are going to commit murder in the future? For someone saying this isn't a Judge Dred or whatever environment, your advocating of killing of people as punishment or pevention for cimes they haven't commited strikes me as odd.
Anyhow, as I've stated earlier, the amount of people on death row when compared to the regular prison population is very small. You are not making an impact on any type of behavior because of the numbers being so small. So even withthe death penalty in the system, you are not "saving" people from being killed by "lifers". You're not really making an impact on any part of the system.
What you are doing, is running the risk of killing an innocent person. And for a system that is geared torwards letting guilty people walk over putting an innocent man in jail,(you know thats the entire reason for the innocent untill proven guilty thing right? we don't convict (allegedly) people on 51% or even 99% evidence for this very reason) I find it idiotic that we run the risk of killing innocent people for no noticeable societal gain. And if you go back to the origional article and stay within the context of this thread, that is exactly why I am disgusted. Most people don't care if we keep the death penalty, regardless of any possible innocent deaths by injection.
One innocent death is FAR too many.
But I tell you what. If someone in here can provide evidence of how the death penalty provides some form of benefit to society, I'll start to believe it's something more than state sanctioned revenge.
I'm not holding my breath.
And that is the at ude in the origional article I find disgusting.
Sure, killing innocent people isn't a big deal!
We have our perfect ultimate penlty, and we're going to use it in our not so perfect system.
Manny, I'm going to say this one more time. I was not talking about the judicial system as a whole. All my statements refer to the DEATH PENALTY. Stop associating my words with that connection. You seem to think that because I support the penalty I support racism or the like. I know the system isn't perfect. I know it needs improvement. You take up the most obvious of arguments and beat everyone over the head with it endlessly for what reason? To prove you are right?
Your justicfications against the death penalty are valid, but also somewhat naive. You state that the death of one innocent person is too much, that is a perfectly acceptable statement. How many people have been executed that were innocent? I'd like to see the numbers. Compare that to how many innocent people have been shot dead by police on the street. Is it acceptable that a single person is killed by mistake on the street? Of course not, but the system is not perfect.
well, i'm not all that informed on the goings on in prisons, but if I was to assume that prisoners with life sentences are in general population with other prisoners that are to be released, then I could easily imagine them being VERY negative influences on the imates that are going to be walking our streets. that is an unacceptable risk.
Non-Lifers should be separated from Lifers.
In an ideal system they would be, and only guilty people would be in jail.
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