Current Superstars?

[balli]

Most of what is said on here is just joking around. Any time Utah is involved, there's going to be Mormon jokes.

That's not what I'm referring to.

And Dirk didn't mean to strike Harpring with a closed fist.

I totally believe he did. There was a Mavs fan youtube video that paused, slowed down and sped up the tempo of the play several times so as to make it look like Dirk didn't, stop, think, close his fist and smack Harpring. In real time, it was obvious, to me anyway, that it was 100% on purpose.

He deserved the ejections both times for poor body control, but he should'nt have been forced to sit out the next games.

Last year he deserved worse. He injured somebody on a purposeful flagrant. IMO, he should've had to sit 2x the amount of games AK did. Objectively, I don't think he should have been suspended this year, but it, I hate dirk and I'm glad it happened.

[JamStone]

Two ways of looking at how to define "superstar."

Commercial supers om and supers om based on play on the basketball court. Or both.

Someone like Joe Johnson might play like a superstar, but he doesn't have the commercial appeal, probably the personality, the publicity, or the venue to really be considered one. Same can be said for a guy like Al Jefferson. But, if we based it on just play, I would consider both of those guys. Same can be said for players like Michael Redd and Brandon Roy (although he gets some pub) and to a lesser extent Chris Bosh. And, even to a much lesser extent, the same can be said of Tim Duncan.

Then there are guys like Vince Carter and Baron Davis that still have a good deal of commercial appeal that probably don't play at a superstar level, at least consistently anymore.

Right now, I say there are four legitimate superstars in the league that have both aspects of "supers om."

LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Paul.

There are other players that are close like Yao and Dwight and Carmelo and even young kids like OJ Mayo and Derrick Rose. But, I'm hesitant to say that them or any other players are really "SUPERSTARS."

[de Soto]

Duncan and Bryant. That's it.

[Findog]

The day KG lets Wally Freaking Szczerbiak blow right by him for a dunk, he'll be worse than Dirk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mN8XRYijq4

Is that from the beginning of the season when Dirk was bothered by that leg injury? Great example.

The scouting report on Dirk's defense needs to be rewritten. He'll never been an elite defender, but he is hardly a liability anymore. He should never be mentioned with the likes of Amare or Nash ever again. Mainly thanks to Avery, Dirk has worked his ass off into being decent on the defensive end. And since he's arguably the most efficient scorer in the league, he will easily win his matchup almost every night.

[Findog]

but it, I hate dirk and I'm glad it happened.

You have some serious frontal lobe damage. I understand why some people and hate on the Mavericks because Cuban is such a strong and in some eyes an obnoxious personality. But Dirk is an example of what's right with the NBA. I'm not some Dirk groupie blind to his flaws as a player, but I don't get the hating on him.

[Black]

Saying Dirk is a better player then Garnett, or even anywhere close to him is a bit much.

I understand you guys might dislike Garnett, but that's just ridiculous. Dirk is a soft little pussy.

[JoeTait75]

Is that from the beginning of the season when Dirk was bothered by that leg injury? Great example.

Touche.

Still, if it comes down to Dirk-v-KG, I have to take KG. Dirk might be a better defender than he used to be, and he's certainly a more diverse, efficient scorer, but he'll never be in KG's league as an individual or team defender, no matter how hard he works on it. He just doesn't have the quickness or the leaping ability.

EDIT- Having said that, if you put Dirk in, say, Hank Egan's defensive scheme, you can minimize his weaknesses on that end while retaining his superior scoring ability, and in that case, he might be more valuable than KG.

[balli]

I'm not some Dirk groupie blind to his flaws as a player, but I don't get the hating on him.

Well, you watch a guy injure one of the Mavs most important players with flagrant... and then try to keep liking him. It has nothing to do with basketball, or the notion of who's "good for the NBA"... it's personal.

[DAF86]

Two ways of looking at how to define "superstar."

Commercial supers om and supers om based on play on the basketball court. Or both.

Someone like Joe Johnson might play like a superstar, but he doesn't have the commercial appeal, probably the personality, the publicity, or the venue to really be considered one. Same can be said for a guy like Al Jefferson. But, if we based it on just play, I would consider both of those guys. Same can be said for players like Michael Redd and Brandon Roy (although he gets some pub) and to a lesser extent Chris Bosh. And, even to a much lesser extent, the same can be said of Tim Duncan.

Then there are guys like Vince Carter and Baron Davis that still have a good deal of commercial appeal that probably don't play at a superstar level, at least consistently anymore.

Right now, I say there are four legitimate superstars in the league that have both aspects of "supers om."

LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Paul.

There are other players that are close like Yao and Dwight and Carmelo and even young kids like OJ Mayo and Derrick Rose. But, I'm hesitant to say that them or any other players are really "SUPERSTARS."

Duncan doesn't have the media hype, but he has the media recognition which is a 100 times better. To me he has both aspects of "supers om".

P.S: I don't know if I catch Joe Johnson in a lot of bad games, but to me he is nothing more than a star wannabe, he takes a lot of awful shots. It's easy to put points in the board when you shoot a lot.

[balli]

P.S: I don't know if a catch Joe Johnson in a lot of bad games,

You must, because Joe Johnson is awesome.

[Findog]

Touche.

Still, if it comes down to Dirk-v-KG, I have to take KG. Dirk might be a better defender than he used to be, and he's certainly a more diverse, efficient scorer, but he'll never be in KG's league as an individual or team defender, no matter how hard he works on it. He just doesn't have the quickness or the leaping ability.

EDIT- Having said that, if you put Dirk in, say, Hank Egan's defensive scheme, you can minimize his weaknesses on that end while retaining his superior scoring ability, and in that case, he might be more valuable than KG.

KG and Dirk are not quite Batmen, but they're better than Robin. Dirk is a much more versatile and efficient scorer, KG is a much better defender. They have different skillsets. I put them at about the same level. Dirk's reputation has never fully recovered from Miami and Golden State, but by any objective measure he is one of the top 5-9 players in the league. You can't name 10 players better than Dirk. You can probably name 10 guys you'd rather have than Dirk because of age and contract size, but you can't name 10 guys a coach would rather have than Dirk. Meanwhile, KG's rep is a bit inflated now because surrounded by a very talented group, he finally got a ring. They're equals in my mind.

[Brazil]

You have some serious frontal lobe damage. I understand why some people and hate on the Mavericks because Cuban is such a strong and in some eyes an obnoxious personality. But Dirk is an example of what's right with the NBA. I'm not some Dirk groupie blind to his flaws as a player, but I don't get the hating on him.

+1 Dirk is a of a player, he is one the classest player and it's a pleasure to see him playing this game.

[JoeTait75]

Being the top player on a team with multiple rings makes you a superstar. Tim is definitely a superstar.

[DAF86]

You must, because Joe Johnson is awesome.

Well, probably. But let me tell you that atempting 19 f/g to get 22 points per game isn't eye poping IMO.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk took a team to the Finals and played great doing it. Nash can't say the same. Neither are chokers, but there's no way you can say Nash has a better playoff resume than Dirk.

Sure I can. That was one season. The fact Dirk was able to carry Dallas to the finals by beating the Spurs when TD has plantar fascitis (whatever the spelling is), Parker had a bruised tailbone and Manu clearly had several minor ailments and then beat the Suns when Amare was out and Bell had a torn calf muscle doesn't make his playoff resume better than Nash's. Take Josh Howard out of the equation in 2006 and who wins the WCF?

[JoeTait75]

Dirk's reputation has never fully recovered from Miami and Golden State, but by any objective measure he is one of the top 5-9 players in the league. You can't name 10 players better than Dirk. You can probably name 10 guys you'd rather have than Dirk because of age and contract size, but you can't name 10 guys a coach would rather have than Dirk. Meanwhile, KG's rep is a bit inflated now because surrounded by a very talented group, he finally got a ring. They're equals in my mind.

I don't put Miami or Golden State on Dirk. In the first case he played his ass off, not just in that series but in the WC playoffs. The Golden State debacle is all on Avery, IMO.

It comes down to personal preferences. I can't dog anyone for taking Dirk over KG.

[balli]

Well, probably. But let me tell you that atempting 19 f/g to get 22 points per game isn't eye poping IMO.

I agree, I don't think he's the most efficient scorer, but really, he put the Hawks on his back 82 games a year for the past half decade and until this year, he didn't really have the luxury of worrying about efficiency. Otherwise, he's a good defender and passer- which is something that usually can't be said about inefficient scorers.

[DAF86]

Sure I can. That was one season. The fact Dirk was able to carry Dallas to the finals by beating the Spurs when TD has plantar fascitis (whatever the spelling is), Parker had a bruised tailbone and Manu clearly had several minor ailments and then beat the Suns when Amare was out and Bell had a torn calf muscle doesn't make his playoff resume better than Nash's. Take Josh Howard out of the equation in 2006 and who wins the WCF?

That minor ailment being having a mental blockege in the last minute of the regular time.

[Findog]

Sure I can.

Doesn't make it any more true.

That was one season. The fact Dirk was able to carry Dallas to the finals by beating the Spurs when TD has plantar fascitis (whatever the spelling is), Parker had a bruised tailbone and Manu clearly had several minor ailments and then beat the Suns when Amare was out and Bell had a torn calf muscle doesn't make his playoff resume better than Nash's. Take Josh Howard out of the equation in 2006 and who wins the WCF?

If If If If If If If If If If If....yeah, you're a Suns fan.

[Findog]

I don't put Miami or Golden State on Dirk. In the first case he played his ass off, not just in that series but in the WC playoffs. The Golden State debacle is all on Avery, IMO.

It comes down to personal preferences. I can't dog anyone for taking Dirk over KG.

Nor can I dog anybody for taking KG over Dirk. It's when one asserts that one is far superior to the other that I have to object.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If If If If If If If If If If If....yeah, you're a Suns fan.

I know exactly what you mean by that and yes I would generally agree w/ you the hypotheticals my fellow Suns fans come up with can get annoying, however the discussion is strictly about Dirk's playoff resume and Nash's playoff resume. When individual playoff achievements are being discussed, injuries to opposing players/teammates are a factor.

In other words, it's not as simple as "which team advanced further" like it normally is.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nor can I dog anybody for taking KG over Dirk. It's when one asserts that one is far superior to the other that I have to object.

They are about equal IMO. The reason I give KG the slight edge is he is better at making his teammates better, it's unclear if Dirk does that well at all.

[endrity]

Well KG and Dirk went head to head in 02, when KG had one of his best teams as Wolve with Chauncey and Wally in his all star year, while KG was also a much more mature player.
Dirk raped his ass every possible way, averaging 33 and 15 with KG not being able to defend him once.

I have never seen the Spurs change their whole philosophy to adjust for KG, they do it every time for the Mavs.
I have never seen KG have anything even close to what Dirk had in 06 (or even 02, 03) as far as a playoff run goes, that was a historic personal run. Boston played 26 playoff games last year, and KG had 1-2 good 4th quarters. He was completely non-existent throughout the Cavs series in crunch time.

The reason why Dirk is down is because of Golden State, and while Avery screwed up a lot of things, Dirk also didn't play his best no doubt. But if one series is why we trash him, than what can we say about KG.

But please go watch games 5 and 6 again of the Finals, he was matching Wade play for play down the stretch, while Wade was hitting FTs on the other hand (legitimately or not, not the issue here). The man had a high ankle sprain against the Hornets last year, and throughout the 1st round had the 3rd of 4th highest PER by all the players in the playoffs, he played extremely well.

There are so many more angles to go here, like how much of a leader or a pose Garnett really is, how he can never produce in the 4th, how Dirk's D is seriously underrated by a lot of people, but I think what I said above is good enough.

[endrity]

They are about equal IMO. The reason I give KG the slight edge is he is better at making his teammates better, it's unclear if Dirk does that well at all.

Just check pre-Mavs Jet and after-Mavs Jet to see that. And yes KG was making his teammates really better throughout the Minny years. Are you gonna tell me he made Pierce and Allen better???? If anything the opposite happened.

[Brazil]

For once I'm on the mav fans side.