I think you're misunderstanding why this is being proposed. This isn't being viewed as a way of generating more growth or some speculative development idea.
This is a solution. The traffic on that highway is going to get a level that it cannot handle, and this rail consistently comes out of studies as the way to go.
You say it doesn't justify the cost, but you are looking at it in the wrong way. We're going to have to spend that money either way. Thats why the money has been allocated. So you save no money by not building this rail, and in fact may end up costing the state MORE money
manny, talks about via expanding as well in order for this train to be implemented... so, that would mean us spending even more money for another system that is already losing money... all this losing money bull is getting old.. face it, the train will just suck money out of our pockets left and right and not really solve any traffic problems...
Clan, repeat after me:
The State is going to have to do something. The rail is the most efficent method, and also the cheapest.
CHEAPEST AND EFFICENT.
Via does more with the amount of money it's giving than any other mass transit district. It's funded by a smaller amount that almost any other MT operation in the country, definetly when compared to cities of the same size.
Like I said, what would you rather do Clan? What do you know that those 2 and soon to be 3 studies don't?
who the are you kidding? via sucks.. to get from one side of town to the next can take hours.. that is far from efficient... and it isn't cheap when the whole city has to pay just to keep it running.. efficient would be getting people anywhere in the city within 1 hr... and being self-sufficient would make it cheap...
build roads... this train will only suck money out and not alleviate any of the traffic problems...
the people pushing for the train stand to make lots of money..
Build roads.
You know that we'll need 9 lanes each way to Austin right? You know that's not going to get nearly as much federal funding and therefor we're giong to spend MORE money right?
TexDOT is the one pushing for a train, who would make money from that?
What do you know they that don't Clan? give me SOMETHING to back up your claim!
Oh, and you can get to the other side of town on Via in under an hour now. The bus service really has been vamped up, and it gets way less local funding than most mass transit. I can back all of that up with figures and times, can you back up your words?
my cousin tried to take the bus to work, but it would have taken him 2 1/2 to get to work 15 miles away... that is ridiculous...
i see nothing wrong with larger highways... larger highways definitely allow traffic to flow smoother, but this train is unproven.. the only thing we know is it will cost loads of money and most likely never make a penny...
I'd like to know where the extra 10 lanes are going to be put in central Austin where they've aleady built up and only fit in four.
where would the train fit?
The tracks are already there for the Union Pacific right of way that they woudl take over. The new tracks being built would not be one's being used by the commuter rail, but by Union Pacific.
Sucks for your cousin, I guarntee you I can get to the opposite side of town in under an hour.
Ok, Where are you giong to put those lanes? And you're complaining about the money, yet you don't want to acknowledge that a highway will cost MORE!
People simply aren't going to use it enough to justify the cost. It will never, ever operate with being subsidized.
Commuter train systems only work when there is a strong local transportation system on at least one end to get people to where they want to go. You can drive to a train station and hop on the train, but what are you going to do when you get to the train station on the other end? Are you going to take a taxi where you need to go? A bus?
The answer: you're going to brave the traffic so you can go wherever you want to go. People don't like to take the bus like they tolerate taking other rapid transit. Commuter rail works in Boston because people from the suburbs can easily transfer to the T in the city and easily go where they need to go. Same with DC. Metra works in Chicago because you can easily transfer to the Elevated and you can buy a monthly pass that will cover both systems.
Unless there is a strong local transportation system, a commuter rail system will never meet expectations. Train stations give people access to a very small geographic area of a town or city, and that simply doesn't work for people.
I'll be happy when I can just "beam" myself where ever I want to go.
A projection of 8,000 users a day. 8,090 actually. Using models that take into account the urban structures of everything along the corridor, including the transportation situations at the ends of the hub.Exhibit 7-3
Year 2000 Average Weekday Person Trips
Station Time Period Total
Peak Off
Peak
Georgetown 270 130 400
Round Rock 370 180 550
McNeil Jct. 150 10 160
US 183 * 170 40 210
RM 2222 * 360 70 430
Austin CBD 1,180 190 1,370
Ben White Blvd. ** 770 140 910
San Marcos 1,250 240 1,490
New Braunfels 220 50 270
Selma 130 90 220
San Antonio Airport 590 70 660
San Antonio CBD 2 870 240 1,110
Kelly 250 60 310
Total 6,580 1,510 8,090
However, the report goes on to acknowledge this may be optomistic.
I'll post that next.
Predicting a 11,000 passanger load per day by 2020.Exhibit 7-4
Year 2020 Average Weekday Person Trips
Station Time Period Total
Peak Off
Peak
Georgetown 470 270 740
Round Rock 710 400 1,100
McNeil Jct. 170 40 210
US 183 * 250 70 320
RM 2222 * 470 110 580
Austin CBD 1,520 290 1,810
Ben White Blvd. ** 790 190 980
San Marcos 1,470 330 1,800
New Braunfels 400 90 490
Selma 210 130 340
San Antonio Airport 570 60 630
San Antonio CBD 1,150 350 1,500
Kelly 380 100 480
Total 8,560 2,430 10,990
Brodels, you fail to take into account that the rail stations would be strategically placed in San Antonio and Austin to allow for easy transportation. It's not like they are going to stick all of the stations in BFE man, com'on now.Exhibit 7-5 compares several key parameters for
recently developed commuter rail systems across
the US and Canada. This exhibit is offered as a
reality check for the ridership projections described
in the previous paragraphs. A review of
this exhibit would suggest that a ridership forecast
of 8,090 daily passengers in an opening year of
2000 for the Austin-San Antonio corridor may be
optimistic. However, given the nature of this
corridor with a major urban area on each end,
ridership levels in the 8,000 daily passenger range
do not seem unreasonable within the first few years
of operation.
Exhibit 7-5
Comparison of Commuter Rail Systems
Total Length Daily Ridership
(miles) One-way Fare First Year
COMMUTER Population First Year
RAIL SYSTEM of Service (Number of (Fare Box of (Current Daily
NAME Area Stations) Recovery) Operation Ridership)
Trinity Railway
Express (TRE) - 10 miles $1.00 450
Dallas 1 4.5 million (3) (2%) 1996 (2,100)
TriRail 2 - South 74 miles $5.50 3,000
Florida 4 million (19 stations) (23%) 1989 (8,500)
Coaster 3 - San 41 miles $3.25 2,000
Diego n.a. (8 stations) (17%) 1995 (4,100)
Virginia Railway 135 miles
Express (VRE) 4 (21 stations) $6.70 3,800
Washington DC 1.3 million [2 lines] (50%) 1994 (7,050)
ACE 5 - Calif
Central Valley to 85 miles $10.00 n.a.
San Jose n.a. (9 stations) (n.a.) 1998 (1,600)
CalTrain - 6 77 miles $6.75 n.a.
SF peninsula n.a. (34 stations) (37%) 1864 (27,000)
Wisconsin Central 61 miles $5.80 1,000
(METRA) 7 7.5 million (14 stations) (55%) 1996 (4,500)
MetroLink 8 400 miles
Los Angeles area (46 stations) $9.75 2,400
15.8 million [6 lines] (46%) 1992 (25,000)
MARC 9 - 187 miles $3.25, $5.75
Baltimore - (38 stations) & $11.50 n.a.
Washington DC n.a. [3 lines] (49%) 1974 (20,000)
Vancouver West 10 40 miles $7.00 5,000
Coast Express n.a. (8 stations) (35%) 1995 (7,600)
That's a ed up translation of a table in a PDF, but it shows you other places where the conditions are simillar to this project, and it's working. In fact, many of those have a smaller population.
Do you think Texans will readily give up their vehicles and begin using the commuter rail?
Do people in NY and Chicago use the transit system out of necessity, due to the high cost of parking and the fact that if everyone did try to drive the road system simply couldn't handle to flow?
I know I like having my own car so I can leave and go where I want to go and not be bound by a route or stops.
But I've also used VIA many times and did so for quite some time. I got used to it and the long time it took me to get from Converse to N. Braunfels & Houston St. soon seemed shorter.
Mass transit systems are the way of the future I think.
My contribution ....
The inner Buddy Holly in me loves mass transit, so much in fact, that I say F* this 80-90 mph train. Lets's go 200 mph bullet-train and link Dallas, Austin San Antonio and Houston (throw in Monterrey if you are feeling generous). But there is a flaw in my thinking. I don't take into account the problem of Urban Sprawl. Urban sprawl just sucks the life out of worthy mass transit intentions.
On which side of Loop 410 do you live Manny?
Isn't all this discussion for the commuter line all for naught? I thought the Trans Texas Corridor was going to take all these issues on? Reason I say this, is that my old boss (Who now heads Skanska USA's highway group) was in town over the weekend to see about partnering up locally on the 281 projects. Skanska lost the TTA bid as a Spanish firm offered $1 Billion in concessions versus their $500 million. And I can remember the days when we'd adjudicate bids and $10,000 was a lot of cash....
From the Washington Post
Link
In December, the Texas Transportation Commission chose a private consortium led by a Madrid-based toll road operator to construct the first segment of the corridor. Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte SA, in conjunction with a San Antonio construction company, will build 316 miles of four-lane turnpike, with substantial room for expansion, from north of Dallas to east of San Antonio. The cities are connected by the most congested portion of Interstate 35 in Texas -- a stretch of road packed with commuters at rush hour and freight trucks round-the-clock. The "Trans-Texas Corridor 35" will be built east of and parallel to I-35 and construction will begin, subject to environmental approval, in the next five years.
Cintra will spend $6 billion to build the highway and will give the state an additional $1.2 billion to fund other road-improvement projects along I-35, Texas's primary NAFTA truck route. In exchange, Cintra will get the right to charge state-approved tolls on the road for 50 years. The Texas Transportation Department will spend $3.5 million to develop the master plan for the turnpike, but other details are still being worked out. Officials expect to sign a contract with Cintra this month.
Admittedly I'm getting in on this late, but...
They better cut that time in half if they want anyone to use it. Who is going to pay 24 dollars a day to ride some stupid train that saves them three minutes of commute time? That's assenine. It's gotta be a bullet train (which of course means UP rails are not gonna cut it), and it's gotta be cheaper for those riding daily.Express trains could whoosh passengers as fast as 80 mph, getting them from downtown San Antonio to downtown Austin in 92 minutes. The same trip by car takes from 94 to 105 minutes during rush hour.
In the same vein, unless you've got some efficient transportation spokes at either end of the line, it ain't gonna work out.
Finally, who is the market for this? Where's the hard figures on the number of Austin workers living in SA that's going to warrant such demand for this thing? Don't tell me we're building a 2 billion dollar slow ass train for 10,000 people, that's a waste of money.
Last edited by Aggie Hoopsfan; 03-05-2005 at 11:58 PM.
GoN, I live a block from 1604 outside of San Antonio City limits. I stay alot at Jessica's however and she also lives outside of 410.
yeah, union pacific and their train derailing tracks... how many derailments have they had with hazardous cargo in the past couple years?
The tracks are already there for the Union Pacific right of way that they woudl take over. The new tracks being built would not be one's being used by the commuter rail, but by Union Pacific.
billions of dollars to spend so 8-11 thousand can save time? BULL- ING- ... that doesn't sound like an efficient project... an intercity electric street car thing would make more sense....
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