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JEKKA AND NBADAN,
You guys are great at adding stuff that doesn't exist in my post. I called you on it before Jekka and you got your feelings hurt. You guys do what you want, because it's obvious you're not interested in any meaningful dialogue.
This is the arrogance behind the Christian Church I have the most trouble with, If you believe in Islam, Budda, Hindu or any other of the worlds dominant religions not based on Christianity, you don't have a shot in (forgive the pun) of making it into heaven. My belief is that different religions exist because no one religious cloak fits all people in all cir stance, and we all go to the same place when we die.And also, are you saying that if you believe in Christ and don't accept what's to offer then you "wish" to go to ? That's some smug logic.
JEKKA AND NBADAN,
You guys are great at adding stuff that doesn't exist in my post. I called you on it before Jekka and you got your feelings hurt. You guys do what you want, because it's obvious you're not interested in any meaningful dialogue.
I went to a Catholic high school. They taught us that if in the end if you sincerely repent your sins you will end up in Heaven. Maybe anybody who can look God in the face when he decides their eternal fate and still not repent what they did wrong should go to . They also taught us that even if you don't believe in God your whole life, if you believe in him when you face him in the end, you will get into Heaven.
Last edited by desflood; 03-11-2005 at 08:07 AM.
As a personal belief, I think that even if you do not believe in God and he exists, you will still get into Heaven if you lived your life as a good person. Those Commandment things (ha ha) are actually a good blueprint for a good life.
What are you saying that I added in my last post that wasn't relevant? Forgive me for not wanting to run around in circles - so I brought up some things that could be implied by your prior response. And as for "getting my feelings hurt", quit being condescending and realize that I backed off in a situation where I knew that I couldn't win. Take your victories where you can and don't rub it in my face.
I am trying to "engage in meaningful dialogue"; I am attempting to bring in some relevant information and anotherl point of view. You, however, do not seem to be willing to step outside yourself for one second to realize that everyone does not have to think the way you do to have "meaningful dialogue" - and with that I am exiting this thread, because it is obvious that you are not interested in a discourse with alternative points of view that I may not even believe but felt a need to expose.
Quote from my sister-in-law when my great-aunt was dying from liver cancer.
sil: "Does she believe in Jesus?"
my mom: "I don't know."
sil: "Then she's going to !"
Niiiiice.
It depends on what one's definition of is. I believe is simply the absence of God. Not necessarily literal "fire and brimstone," but chaos. If Heaven is perfect beyond anything humans can imagine, then (by comparison) is a horrible punishment.Where in this "unconditional love" does eternal damnation fit in? No, Spurminator, unconditional love does not have to mean unconditional reward, but why does it have to mean unconditional and eternal punishment?
If you look at damnation as simply being denied access to the Kingdom of Heaven, it doesn't seem unreasonable for God to turn His back on those who have rejected Him... even though He loves them.
I'll try to get some Scripture to back it up, so it's not just my philosophising.
I must disagree entirely.
You know, everybody believes something different. My mother has this theory that the life we're living now is , and if we can get through it without going crazy and committing any major sins (like murder) we automatically go into Heaven when we die.
See, THIS, I can buy much more. However, what you just said doesn't fit very well with a standard christian doctorine.
And the church will never come out and acknowledge anything like that. Why? Because it would make the church pretty damn trivial.
Well, I'm not a Christian. Actually, I was never baptized into any faith. I just try to be a good person.
I was just going to post that! Makes sense to me.My mother has this theory that the life we're living now is ,
And if there is such a place as Heaven, I hope we have access to celebrities. Cuz I really want to talk with John Bonham.
Well I hate to tell you, but according to some posters in this thread, you'll be "left behind"
I think that religion definetly leads to lots of good things. I've done community service through churches, as has Jekka. In fact, I doubt anyone in here has done more than her, and she's probably the youngest one in this conversation.
I think Christianity provides the foundation of a very good phiosophy on how to live your life. I do however think that it is used far too often as a method of control. I think that there are too many inconsistencies that seem to come from an overzealous church than from anything else.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."
There have been instances of churches of any faith being overzealous. However, there are also people of all faiths who would be too weak to police themselves without the benefit of said churches.
Oh no way, not nearly the same as saying that you don't need to go to church every Sunday to have a relationship with god.
That in no way is an acknowledgement that to the Vatican, cathlocism is the only way to be saved.
You can choose to believe what I post or not...but I gave my source, which is a direct and primary source.
Do NOT call me a liar...which is what you just did.
Woah, infering a bit much there?
Switch to decaf Travis, because what I said was that paragraph is saying that other churches have some value, but thats all. In no way does it say that you can gain entry to heaven through them. Nor does it say in anyway that you can be saved without the catholic church.
How in the is that calling you a liar?
Ok, let's sorta start over then. This is all I'm saying.
1. Do you believe in Jesus as Lord? If no, then don't worry about what Chrisitains say. If you want to debate the existance of Jesus and his power, well that's another argument.
2. If you do believe in Jesus as Lord then doesn't it make sense to make Jesus your savior? If not, you're essentially saying Yes Jesus is Lord creator of the universe but you still won't except him as your savior. It's easy to see why that person is choosing ?
If you answer no to the first then there's no need to answer 2.
Maybe I went a little too far...it sounded to me as though you were directly questioning the veracity of the source I posted. My apologies.
Some more relevant passages from the Catechism:
838: The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.
839: The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
841: The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Why? What makes someone who spent his/her entire life rejecting God en led to spend eternity WITH God?I must disagree entirely.
If I had a child who rejected me their entire life, I would NEVER turn my back on them, leave them, or anything as similar. That is what real love is. Especialy when Love is supposed to come from the most merciful of all beings.
first you're not a child.
second, do you believe in jesus as god or not? Talking in generalities is pointless. If you don't believe in jesus as god, then you shouldn't be worried about chrisitans say or believe. If you do believe in jesus as lord and then deny him, that's between you and him.
According to you, am I not God's child?
I'm not trying to get you to belive my point of view 2 cents.
I'm having a discussion. My views are irrelevent because I don't subscribe to a religion you deem relevant? How would you ever discuss religion with someone outside of your sphere of beliefs then?
I believe Jesus existed and I believe he had a great philosphy on how to live life that many people could do well to follow.
However, I do not subscribe to a god that most Christians subscribe too, because I don't believe an all loving god places the rules Christians believe he does.
If God would let everybody into Heaven, then what is the point of piety?
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