Where is tonights Nazr>Wilt thread?

[Useruser666]

This year, even looking at blocks alone, as a factor in controlling the paint, the facts don't lie in bpg.
.74 = Horry
.80 = Nazr

So far, what I'm seeing is guys aren't getting into the paint as much with Nazr in there and he alters shots. It's especially effective when he is paired with Timmy or Rasho.

Let's face it. The Spurs hardly controlled the lane with any of these combos:
Horry and Malik
Mass and Malik
Mass and Horry

The interior defense looks pretty good right now and in longer stretches.

Blocks? Statistics?

Rose averages:

.18 bpg with San Antonio for 50 games at 17.2 mpg

.29 bpg with NY for 7 games at 17.3 mpg

Horry averages:

.74 bpg with SA for 57 games at 16.4 mpg

Nazr averages:

.97 bpg with NY for 59 games at 26.9 mpg

.80 bpg with SA for 5 games at 14.0 mpg

Now let me ask if any of the following statements are generally accepted.

(1) Malik Rose is not a shot blocker.

(2) Nazr has not played many games with the Spurs this year.

(3) Nazr averages more bpg than either Horry or Rose, both when he played with the Knicks and for the 5 games he has played so far as a Spur.

I think it's interesting to note that even though Nazr's minutes have dropped from 26.9 as a Knick to 14.0 as a Spur his bpg average has only gone from .97 to .80. I will conceed that his Spur's average is a weak number to base from the limited number of games he has played, but it is encouraging to me that he has much room to grow.

[whottt]

Whott, your whole problem is the only one who is saying that you are right is yourself (well, at least until LJ comes along).

So? What does that have to do with who is right and who is wrong?

The other problem is this stupid ass straw man argument you've got going on. No one has proclaimed Nazr the next Wilt, except for you.

"Nazr can shoot, didn't you see that 17 foot jumper he made", "Nazr can pass, didn't you see that pass he made to Duncan".

What we have done is say that Nazr >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rose, and you don't have a leg to stand on (outside of your cute little NY Knick bulletin board bull ).

I most definitely have a leg to stand on...

First of all...whose team is doing better since the trade? A lottery team traded "the greatest Center in history" and is now playing their best basketball of the season...While the Spurs have been dropping home games to 8 seeds.

Secondly...

Nazr has been dumped by lottery teams whose greatest need is a true C...Nazr has had trouble getting off the bench on teams that were the worst in the NBA...

Malik Rose has been backing up a pair of HOFers and his services were valued so greatly, prior to the addition of Robert Horry...that the Spurs were willing to grossly overpay him.

Even now, you guys can cite all the weak talent aspects you want...but it's undeniable that the Spurs were helped financially by this trade...so there is plenty of justification to make the claim that this trade wasn't in the best interests of winning a le, or done purely to gain talent.

Only a Malik Rose hater would try to claim that without being honest about Nazr's flaws...hater.

* Nazr rebounds better than Rose

I expect Malik's rebound totals to go up and Nazr's to decline...

Nazr also hasn't spent the bulk of his career backing up a pair of HOF'ers...he's been backing up scrub C's on lottery teams(and doing it badly and getting traded from those teams).

* Nazr blocks more shots/is more of a shot blocking threat to opponents than Rose

Good...his career shotblocking totals aren't as superior to Malik's as they should be considering his height advantage.

* Nazr doesn't suffocate the Spurs offense and kill the ball movement like Rose did

Damn did you just fart? Oh wait...that was you talking out of your ass, my bad.

* Nazr gets his points on the offensive glass, not by taking jump shots or trying to go one on the other team's entire front line and get his stuffed

Hey, I like Nazr's ability to get putbacks...but so far that's the only ability he's shown.

He does however get his stuffed, and does seem to be inclined to try and take on the opposing teams entire frontline...Malik's excuse for sucking when trying those things was that he was short...what's Nazr's?

Argue this point all you want but Nazr's is averaging .3 assists per game for his career...and he's been a starter...and been the best post player on some teams...

* simply put, Nazr is much taller and a legitimate NBA center (and plays like it)

I'll agree that you put it simply...I'll disagree that you put it accurately.

* the Spurs don't lose any interior presence with Nazr on the court, you can't say the same for Rose - simply put, teams didn't look inside and say "oh , Rose is in there, I better not try and take it inside, I've got a good chance of getting blocked. Can't say the same for Nazr." Nazr already has four times as many blocks here with SA as Rose has up in NY, again with more playing time for Rose.

That's crap...teams don't look inside and say "Oh , Shawn Bradley is in there". Height does not a Center make...Malil has been beating out taller guys his entire career...Can Nazr make that claim?

And Malik's bad team is doing better since he got there and Nazr's good team isn't.

* Forget the stats for a minute, I haven't seen anyone go over Nazr's back for a rebound since he got here, it happened all the time to Malik

That's because you are drunk on Malik hate...you need to go back and watch the last two games...

Here's another kicker: Rose is getting the PT he didn't get here up in NY, and Nazr still has better numbers in less minutes.

Malik is playing .1 more minute per game for the Knicks than he was in SA....some of Nazr's numbers are better than Malik's...and some of them aren't.

NOTE: I am not saying he is going to be Kareem, or Wilt, or Dave in his prime, just that our interior game will be significantly stronger with Nazr than it could ever be with Rose.

Right...you haven't said he is the next Kareem or Wilt..you are just saying he has no weaknesses in his game...none....you even attempt to deny the flaws which have been on bigtime display...which means you are claiming he is like unto Kareem or Hakeem...

This is what TimVP and myself have been saying...to anyone with an ounce of objectivity I think it's pretty obvious who is being objective and who is hating.

[whottt]

Seriously, show me the relevance of shot blocks/PF pertaining to winning oh I don't know, the last 10 NBA championships, and I'm listening.

Show me the relevance of Nazr Mohammed to the last 10 NBA championships...

Until then it's just some obscure stat that you are clinging to in order to sound anything less than a complete idiot on this subject.

No it's not...it's an indepth stat used to judge fine differences between shotblockers with similar BPG and total blocks averages...A photo finish if you will...

In this case the differences in the close totals and averages of Robert Horry and Mohammed Nazr.

I enjoy the Aggie dig, I guess it's all you have to hang your hat on (outside that block/PF ratio, I mean).

LMAO, you want to know something funny? I am full of on every thing but the Aggie dig. I was serious about that...

It's good that you have learned to laugh at yourself though

[Useruser666]

Damn, what a blabber mouth!

[Mark in Austin]

I most definitely have a leg to stand on...

First of all...whose team is doing better since the trade? A lottery team traded "the greatest Center in history" and is now playing their best basketball of the season...While the Spurs have been dropping home games to 8 seeds.

You have to be kidding me. You claim legitimacy, and then back it up with the assertion that Rose is the better player because the Knicks are playing better than the Spurs since the trade??? In case you were too busy typing to check out a game or ten, Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili - not to mention Nazr - have all missed games to injury during the span of games you use for comparison. WTF kind of "MVP Candidate" advances a take this weak?

Oh, yeah. A self-proclaimed one.

[Solid D]

LMAO, you want to know something funny? I am full of **** on every thing but the Aggie dig. I was serious about that...

It's good that you have learned to laugh at yourself though

The defense rests.

[Useruser666]

Everything you say can and WILL be used against you!

[whottt]

You have to be kidding me. You claim legitimacy, and then back it up with the assertion that Rose is the better player because the Knicks are playing better than the Spurs since the trade???

It would seem to be a valid point....if Nazr was a good as the Malik haters claim then why is his team now much improved without him?

When he was healthy they still sucked badly...they have gone on their longest winning streaks of the season without him....

Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?

Who is adapting to their team faster?

Which team has improved the most since the trade?

o? Injuries to Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili? (Not to mention Nazr)

I'm sorry but Tim Duncan does not play any games for the New York Knicks so BZZZZZZT that's an invalid point....Malik was won 6 games without Duncan in the lineup...


PSST...it's also a bad idea to jock ride a player who forces you to use his injuries as one of his positive aspects...

It's not Malik's fault he's not injury prone and Nazr is.


Injuries = bad, not good.

WTF kind of "MVP Candidate" advances a take this weak?

Oh, yeah. A self-proclaimed one.

I bet you are popular at parties.

[whottt]

The defense rests.

And the defenses loses...

[ChumpDumper]

they have gone on their longest winning streaks of the season without him....

Three games ties a streak with Nazr, and the lates streak had one game w/o Malik.

Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?

Spurs are a much better team.

Who is adapting to their team faster?

Who was injured? Which team actually has a defensive scheme?

Which team has improved the most since the trade?

Record-wise? #1 is still #1. How much improvement were you expecting? If KThomas, Crawford and Marbury were injured during this time, you might have a point.

[Useruser666]

I wish I had one of those "telestrator" things and could write directly on the forum itself! "lol

It would seem to be a valid point....if Nazr was a good as the Malik haters claim then why is his team now much improved without him?

Every dog has it's day. The Knicks can only lose one game a day. Nazr was still hurt when he was on the Knicks. When you trade a hurt player for a healthy one you might just get a change in overall performance. There was also several other additions to the Knicks that have just as much a reason for their recent improvement.

Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?

Nazr was hurt when he came here. Pop elected not to play him his first two eligable games here. Rose was not hurt and could play right away. It's funny that you mention minutes at all. If Malik is such a great player, shouldn't he get tons more minutes for such a bad team as NY? How come his minutes haven't increased greatly in NY? Nazr shouldn't get tons of minutes because he is playing behind Tim Duncan. He can slowly be brought into the system and doesn't need to be rushed.

Which team has improved the most since the trade?

Where was SA's record going to go? Where was NY's record going to go? What team just lost it's best two players during the stretch of games you mentioned?

I'm sorry but Tim Duncan does not play any games for the New York Knicks so BZZZZZZT that's an invalid point

Again, you yourself point out that the Spurs have Duncan and don't need to give Nazr tons of minutes. If Pop can DNP Malik for games on and off, I think it's understandable that Nazr plays only a few minutes to get accustomed to things.

I don't think anyone has been hating on Malik here. People are just excited about seeing what Nazr can do. I think he'll be just fine and perform pretty well. This isn't like Laker fans talking about how Brian Grant will replace Shaq.

[ChumpDumper]

I expect Malik's rebound totals to go up and Nazr's to decline.

Malik's rebounding rate has gone down quite a bit. Nazr's has increased slightly. I await further hair-splitting on your definition of rebound totals or perhaps a new rebounds/crushed-paper-cup-during-timeouts ratio that will be so stunning in its relevance no one will have used it in the press or scouting reports or player profiles all year.

Malik was a good player for the Spurs. Nazr can be a good player for the Spurs.

[whottt]

Three games ties a streak with Nazr,

Which still qualifies it as their longest streak of the season, they also were on their longest home winning streak of the season...I'd also point out that their only losses since Malik joined the team were to teams that have also beaten the Spurs.

and the lates streak had one game w/o Malik.

I'll get back to this point later in this post when I shove your double standard and hypochracy up you butt.

Spurs are a much better team.

As ass says what?

Who was injured?

I see...and can you tell me the last guy who helped a team win a game by being injured?

Other than Chris Webber injuries are a negative.

Which team actually has a defensive scheme?

Knicks have had their best defensive performances of the season since Malik joined their team. If you don't think the Knicks D is greatly improved the past month then you don't know basketball so let's just drop this here and now...I'm not going to bang my head against your wall of stupid...er density.

Record-wise? #1 is still #1.

So let me get this straight...A single Knick game won without Malik is worth noting...but Nazr gets credit for an entire seasons worth of games?

How much improvement were you expecting?

How about the non negative kind?

Better yet...how about our winning PCT in the same number of games be better than that of the freaking Knicks since the trade? Is that too much ing ask?

If KThomas, Crawford and Marbury were injured during this time, you might have a point.

Well...if I had still had any doubts about whether or not you are a ing dumbass the fact that you equate Thomas, Crawford and Marbury with Parker, Duncan and Manu pretty muich gets rid of them.

But since you have crapped that pile of stupidity into this debate...

Ehy don't you tell us what the Knicks winning PCT was when all those guys and Nazr were healthy...then tell us what it is now without Nazr and with Malik?

[Mark in Austin]

It would seem to be a valid point....if Nazr was a good as the Malik haters claim then why is his team now much improved without him?...
Who is adapting to their team faster?

Which team has improved the most since the trade?


I'm sorry but Tim Duncan does not play any games for the New York Knicks so BZZZZZZT that's an invalid point....Malik was won 6 games without Duncan in the lineup...

Thank you for reminding us all that Duncan is not a Knick. What does that have to do with anything? You say the Knicks are playing better with Rose that the Spurs are with Nazr, therefore Malik > Nazr. First, that is a silly comparison to make. New York's starting unit has remained relatively intact otherwise, whereas the Spurs three best players have all missed games since the trade. Aside from Malik and Nazr being variables, both teams would have to stay the same as they were before the trade for your assertion to be valid. Other key Spurs have missed time, therfore, the Spurs record is not solely attributable to Nazr's performances. (And the Knick's record is not solely as a result of Malik for that matter. The Knicks did make other trades that day.) Your reasoning just doesn't add up when you look at all of the data, not just the data convenient to your argument.

As far as the supposed fact that the Knicks are somehow outperforming the Spurs since the trade:

New York is 4-3 since the trade in games that Malik has played in. San Antonio is 4-1 in games which Mohammed played, despite the fact that injuries have slowed their ability to get court time together and gel as a unit.

Why are Malik's minutes the same as they were in San Antonio while Nazr is getting substantially fewer minutes per game here now?

Perhaps because San Antonio's offensive and defensive schemes are much more complicated than New York's, and there is a steeper learning curve with the Spurs, especially on defense. If you can't play the defense, you don't get many minutes here. Malik has benefitted from playing Spurs defense for years, and that defensive focus gets you minutes. And it has, to an extent, rubbed off on some of the other Knicks.

Also, and more obviously, Nazr was injured or recovering from injury for many of the games since the trade. Of course he played less minutes. This isn't some secret - the Spurs acknowledged that they would bring him along slowly to minimize the risk of re-aggravating it. AND despite their caution, that's what wound up happening.

[whottt]

Malik's rebounding rate has gone down quite a bit. Nazr's has increased slightly. I await further hair-splitting on your definition of rebound totals or perhaps a new rebounds/crushed-paper-cup-during-timeouts ratio that will be so stunning in its relevance no one will have used it in the press or scouting reports or player profiles all year.

Hair splitting? You have the ing balls to call me a hair splitter? Get ing outta town. What ing audacity. That is all you do! Geezus!

The difference is in their offensive rebounding and if you weren't an idiot, and could read, you'd see that I have generally praised Nazr's offensive rebounding.

Malik was a good player for the Spurs. Nazr can be a good player for the Spurs.

So tell me something I haven't already said...

But when? If you don't think Malik was an asset that could aid in winning a le then you are ing stupid and not much of a Spurfans...if you think Nazr can help as much THIS SEASON as Malik will...you are guessing plain and simple...

Malik would have helped if played...Nazr might...We traded a would have for a might...I don't think that increased our chances of winning a le this season.

[Mark in Austin]

Oh, and to use Whottt's selective use of facts:

Nazr > Wilt. Because dead guys can't rebound. How many points, rebounds, blocks, even minutes has Wilt had since the trade?

Zero, mother ers. Therefore Nazr > Wilt.

[Useruser666]

I will say this again. Nazr has only played 5 games so far. No real comparrisson or evaluation can be made yet.

[ChumpDumper]

The difference is in their offensive rebounding and if you weren't an idiot, and could read, you'd see that

That's not what you wrote. If you weren't an idiot, you'd know that.

But when? If you don't think Malik was an asset that could aid in winning a le then you are ing stupid

He could've been, Nazr can be.

if you think Nazr can help as much THIS SEASON as Malik will...you are guessing plain and simple...

as are you when you guess Malik is automatically the better choice.

Malik would have helped if played.

Guessing. Hypocrite. Malik even admits he did nothing against Shaq one year and that's all you've really tried hanging your hat on. We traded one might for another.

[Mark in Austin]

if you think Nazr can help as much THIS SEASON as Malik will...you are guessing plain and simple...

As are you when you postulate that Malik's rebounding numbers will go up and Nazr's will go down:

I expect Malik's rebound totals to go up and Nazr's to decline...

[whottt]

a big lameass injury excuse

Injuries aren't a positive...I hold Nazr accountable for those losses because Malik wasn't injured and could have played. I also hold the Spurs accountable to trading for an injured player...and if we end up losing HCA and a le...there won't be anything to debate on whether or not the trade hurt us this season.

[FromWayDowntown]

Injuries aren't a positive...I hold Nazr accountable for those losses because Malik wasn't injured and could have played. I also hold the Spurs accountable to trading for an injured player...and if we end up losing HCA and a le...there won't be anything to debate on whether or not the trade hurt us this season.

If you're "[holding] Nazr accountable for those losses," you can only be talking about 1 loss where Nazr didn't play because of injury -- the Phoenix loss, in which, as you know, neither of the Spurs two all-stars played. The only other loss since Nazr has actually suited up was the Denver game, in which Nazr actually played.

It's pure conjecture on your part that a healthy Malik Rose would have somehow changed the outcome of that single game and altered the race for HCA. Prove your premise somehow (with something other than your own speculation) and I'll begin to buy your argument. Until then, you're just guessing.

Come on, whottt -- you can't blast someone's conjecture and then turn to your own guesses to explain why they're wrong.

[Mark in Austin]

Injuries aren't a positive...I hold Nazr accountable for those losses because Malik wasn't injured and could have played. I also hold the Spurs accountable to trading for an injured player...and if we end up losing HCA and a le...there won't be anything to debate on whether or not the trade hurt us this season.

Malik not being injured does not necessarily mean that:

1. He would have played significant minutes. It is just as likely, if not moreso, that Malik would make one or a series of bonehead plays and Pop would pull his ass for the rest if the game.

2. If he did play significant minutes, the Spurs would win.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hey Whottt, seriously though, you thinking about starting a book? 'cause those last post of yours should be enough for the first 3 chapters. LOL

[timvp]

Whotttt is going a little overboard now. I'm going to have to step away from my support of his cause.

What is also bothersome is that I told Whottt that if the Spurs re-signed Robert Horry this summer, that would mean that Rose was going to be traded or sent to the dog house. Whottt told me I was crazy and that Horry and Rose could work together. It came down to Horry vs. Rose for the Spurs and at the last second (after not contacting him or his agent all summer), the Spurs decided to go with Horry.

Only time will tell if they made the right choice.

[ducks]

I think we should use this thread tonight for the nazr thread