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  1. #76
    The Last Good Sport samikeyp's Avatar
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    Not sure about that.

    - Barkley did not redefine the position. He was a once-in-a-lifetime talent, and there really haven't been any 6'4'' power forwards since. He was an anomaly.

    - Malone did more to redefine the position, in that he developed a reliable outside shot and became a truly versatile first-scoring option.

    - McHale did a lot to improve upon the position. He was polished. His post moves were amazing. McHale was the forerunner to Olajuwon and Duncan, two of the greatest post players in NBA history. (Yes, I realize Olajuwon was technically a center.)
    It was McHale's polish that redefined it. Barkley took it a step further, Malone further still.

  2. #77
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    Which would be a redefinition of the postion.
    Thus, I wrote "except to the extent." Duncan has mostly improved upon the innovations of his predecessors. Like I said, he has completely blurred the line, but McHale and Olajuwon had already started the process. Duncan just finished the process. He hasn't really introduced anything new.

    Garnett has had a similar impact as Duncan but not to the extent that Duncan has, IMO.

    Dirk..maybe offensively but that's it, he doesn't bring the defensive skills that KG or TD do.
    I think we're talking about different things. Duncan is better than KG and Dirk. But that's not the question. Like I said, Duncan is an improvement upon the innovations of his predecessors. Mostly, though, what Duncan has introduced was already in the works with McHale and Olajuwon.

    KG and Dirk are pretty damn new and unique. Time will tell if their innovations change the position. I'll clarify: Dirk and KG have more potential to redefine the position than Duncan.

    It was McHale's polish that redefined it. Barkley took it a step further, Malone further still.
    I think McHale was the one you mentioned who did the most to redefine the position. Barkley did very little to redefine the position; he's just too darn unusual, and I can't think of any power forward since who plays like him. Malone did more than Barkley to redefine the position.

  3. #78
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    Duncan's supporting cast in 2003 doesn't get mentioned enough..he played with David when he was "just" a role player, and Manu/Parker/Jackson before they were more than "just" role players..

    Duncan in the playoffs led us in PPG, RPG, BPG, APG, and finished 2nd in FG%..he absolutely carried this team..people forget how completely dominant he was in his prime..

    of course that doesn't get mentioned, while they cry about Lebron's supporting cast every year..

    nobody mentions why Tim lost in 2001 and 2002, when our guards were horrible..teams would swarm him, and nobody could help him out..I never hear anybody mention that outside of this forum..when it's Kobe or KG, that's all we hear about..

    when Duncan is hurt, we don't hear about it in the media, because he doesn't talk about it..his sprained ankles in the Finals, his PF in 2006, his constant injuries that he plays through..when Kobe has a hurt finger or has the flu, we hear about it at least 200 times during the telecast..

    they can talk about how "boring" he is, but in reality, the media is the reason for this..if Timmy played in ANY other era, or if he played in Boston or LA, you have to believe the hype would be huge..

  4. #79
    The Last Good Sport samikeyp's Avatar
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    I think McHale was the one you mentioned who did the most to redefine the position. Barkley did very little to redefine the position; he's just too darn unusual, and I can't think of any power forward since who plays like him. Malone did more than Barkley to redefine the position.
    Actually I said nothing like that. I said he was one who redefined it, not the most.

    As far as Dirk goes, IMO you have to have a great all around game to redefine a position, I don't believe Dirk has what it takes defensively.

  5. #80
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    Actually I said nothing like that. I said he was one who redefined it, not the most.
    No, I said he redefined it the most. Read it again. I said nothing about you saying that. Don't get butt-hurt.

  6. #81
    The Last Good Sport samikeyp's Avatar
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    No, I said he redefined it the most. Don't get butt-hurt.
    It was a misread on my part. My bad.

    Just because we don't agree doesn't mean anyone is butthurt.

  7. #82
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    It was a misread on my part. My bad.

    Just because we don't agree doesn't mean anyone is butthurt.
    Well, you should probably make sure you comprehend a post before you make accusations about what the person who posted it is saying. You sounded butt-hurt.

    Maybe butt-hurt is a harsh way to put it. You were unreasonably defensive.

  8. #83
    The Last Good Sport samikeyp's Avatar
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    Well, you should probably make sure you comprehend a post before you make accusations about what the person who posted it is saying. You sounded butt-hurt.

    Maybe butt-hurt is a harsh way to put it. You were unreasonably defensive.
    I think there is where the problem lies. I didn't sound a certain way but because of the written word, we can't tell that. I was (and am still not) upset or defensive about anything. Just enjoying a good debate. I was trying to clarify my position and I simply misread what was said. It wasn't a matter of comprehension, it was a matter of trying to post too fast here at work!

  9. #84
    The Last Good Sport samikeyp's Avatar
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    see? Double post! I gotta slow down!


    I didn't say which one I thought most redefined it but I will now. Until Duncan, I would have agreed with you about McHale. I believe now that Duncan has done the most to do so.

    Just my .02
    Last edited by samikeyp; 06-19-2009 at 12:07 PM.

  10. #85
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    I don't think there's an empirical formula to prove what I think -- no matter how much Galileo wants to pretend that there can be. And I don't think it's just about talent or flash or publicity or highlights -- results must matter. Hence, I think Russell is firmly entrenched in the pantheon of greats, no matter who his teammates were and no matter what the compe ion level was. Russell's teammates changed through the years, but his team's results did not, which strikes me as a testament to Russell's greatness. They beat all comers during Russell's reign and that's all they could have done.

    As to Mr. Duncan: Timmy is surely the most accomplished pro of this generation (really post-Jordan). And other than Jordan or Magic, I consider him the most accomplished pro since the merger. He's been the unquestioned focal point and crucial player on 4- le winners, while bringing home 2 MVPs, 12 All-NBA's (9 First Teams), and 12 All-Defenses (8 First Teams; and having been royally screwed out of one or more DPOYs along the way).

    Shaq has as many les, but less of the ancillary accolades. He was First Team All-NBA 8 times, but was Third Team All-NBA another 4 times; Duncan has never been anything other than First or Second Team. Shaq only made 3 All-Defense teams (and never First Team). He has only one MVP (though that's unfair). But, more than anything, I think he's eclipsed by Duncan because he was clearly not the alpha male on his last le team.

    Bird has more of the ancillary accolades (more MVPs, an equal number of First Team All-League nods), but he likewise was rarely named to an All-Defense team and was never named to an All-Defense First Team. Moreover, Bird does not have as many rings as Timmy.

    I'd also argue, though, that hardware aside, Timmy's greatness should get a bump because of what he won with. The latter days of David Robinson's career weren't what made him a Hall of Famer; David was a very good player when the Spurs started winning les and was much more of a role player when they won in 2003. Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are All-Star caliber talents, but not all-time greats. Timmy won repeatedly with those guys by his side. I don't think anyone would agree that latter-Dave, Manu or Tony is the basketball equivalent of Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Robert Parish, or Kevin McHale. Shaq and Bird, in winning les, had historically better sidekicks than Duncan did in winning his. I thnk the world of Tony and Manu (and Dave, of course), but in le runs, those guys were (at best) marginal All-Stars. Kobe, Wade, Parish, McHale weren't merely All-Stars; those guys were making First and Second Team All-NBA during the heydays of Bird and Shaq.

    In the years of the Spurs 4 le runs, Duncan didn't have a single teammate who made an All-NBA team. Bowen made 3 All-Defense teams during those runs; Ginobili made an All-Star team in 2005. Other than that, those Spurs teams only accolades were Duncan's All-NBA, All-Defense, and All-Star nods (and his MVPs).

    By contrast, in Shaq's 4 le runs, Kobe was 2nd team twice and 1st team once, and Wade was 2nd team.

    It's all subjective. And my point of view is decidedly skewed in favor of Spurs and particularly Tim Duncan. But I think there's plenty of reasonable argument to put Tim above Bird and Shaq, which necessarily puts Tim into the elite of the elite of the elite and among the 7 or so best players in the history of the game.
    It is subjective, but these are undesputable facts that you just posted. With that being said, people won't truly comprehend Tim Duncan's greatness until after he retires.

  11. #86
    RIP whottt. slayermin's Avatar
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    The greatest FORWARD to ever play the game. I have him at #5 all time.

  12. #87
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    Duncan's supporting cast in 2003 doesn't get mentioned enough..he played with David when he was "just" a role player, and Manu/Parker/Jackson before they were more than "just" role players..

    Duncan in the playoffs led us in PPG, RPG, BPG, APG, and finished 2nd in FG%..he absolutely carried this team..people forget how completely dominant he was in his prime..

    of course that doesn't get mentioned, while they cry about Lebron's supporting cast every year..

    nobody mentions why Tim lost in 2001 and 2002, when our guards were horrible..teams would swarm him, and nobody could help him out..I never hear anybody mention that outside of this forum..when it's Kobe or KG, that's all we hear about..

    when Duncan is hurt, we don't hear about it in the media, because he doesn't talk about it..his sprained ankles in the Finals, his PF in 2006, his constant injuries that he plays through..when Kobe has a hurt finger or has the flu, we hear about it at least 200 times during the telecast..

    they can talk about how "boring" he is, but in reality, the media is the reason for this..if Timmy played in ANY other era, or if he played in Boston or LA, you have to believe the hype would be huge..
    +1

    The greatest FORWARD to ever play the game. I have him at #5 all time.
    You get no argument from me on that one.

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