Which of these is a right?

[Extra Stout]

I see one person that doesn't understand the writings of Founders. Lets refer to the Declaration of Independence.



When you can live without food and water, you get back to me.

This would be a prime example of what I was referring to earlier, i.e. imposing a 20th/21st-century worldview on an 18th-century do ent written by someone with an 18th-century worldview.

[angrydude]

The confusion on this topic seems to boil down to this:

Everyone has a right to food( water/shelter etc.) in the sense that you are allowed to have food (heck, even access to food) without the govt. sending you to jail or killing you.

But you don't have the right to have someone else provide you with that food.

[sam1617]

The confusion on this topic seems to boil down to this:

Everyone has a right to food( water/shelter etc.) in the sense that you are allowed to have food without the govt. sending you to jail or killing you.

But you don't have the right to have someone else provide you with that food.

Or, more accurately, you can't demand food from others for free.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm fine with a small social welfare net to catch people, for a limited amount of time. Crashes and es aren't great economically for a country... especially the crashes. So I'm fine with small amounts of welfare, food stamps, etc etc for limited amounts of time, in order to buoy up someone dealing with an emergency. In the same sense, I support legalities like filing for bankruptcy, as it helps to encourage business creation.

However, after a certain amount of time, then I'm willing to kick them to the curb, as it were. It's harsh but realistic, in my opinion.

Same here. I am all for tons of safety nets for people. Checks and balances need to be in place so they don't live off them though. I have stated several times that I believe the only times this nation should run a deficit is during times of war recession. Other times, the debt should be paid down. Deficit spending during hard times will include food stamps, financial assistance, etc. I'm fine with that. I'm just so pissed that our politicians fail to pay down the debt when we can. We have too many people who are lifers on the social programs. Unless they have a disability, they need to be kick off the government teat.

[CuckingFunt]

Well, you and I are dismetrically opposed to one another on this issue. Helping the poor, the jobless and the sick is a noble cause, to be sure.

Where we differ completely is government's role in the administration of said help by way of taxes on the majority for the few.

The Cons ution promises the opporunity to success, not the success itself.

That last sentence is the problem, though. You're nuts if you think that everyone in this country has the same opportunity to succeed as you or I do. That is far, far from the case.

[CuckingFunt]

Then move to Europe.

No thanks. I'd rather try to fix the broken country I love.

[sam1617]

That last sentence is the problem, though. You're nuts if you think that everyone in this country has the same opportunity to succeed as you or I do. That is far, far from the case.

So how would you fix that? Would you redistribute wealth or dye everyones skin orange so you can't tell race?

What are the things that are stopping people from having opportunity to succeed?

[CuckingFunt]

What are the things that are stopping people from having opportunity to succeed?

Ins utionalized racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, genderism, heterosexism, classism, etc.

This country is really good at sneaky little things like publicly making social welfare programs available, but not educating the people who need them as to how to get them. Or keeping vast segments of the population ignorant by funding social welfare programs, like TANF, that cut out when young mothers attempt to go to school.

[sam1617]

Ins utionalized racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, genderism, heterosexism, classism, etc.

This country is really good at sneaky little things like publicly making social welfare programs available, but not educating the people who need them as to how to get them. Or keeping vast segments of the population ignorant by funding social welfare programs, like TANF, that cut out when young mothers attempt to go to school.

So wait, its the nations fault that people aren't smart enough to go to a library, hop on a computer with free internet, and type in some search along the lines of "How to get welfare in the US"?

Do we need to print a bunch of pamphlets, and hand them out door to door so people know?

And for your list of prejudices, do you want the government to start controlling the way people think? I'm not saying being prejudiced is right or good, but its an individual choice, or are those bad too? I can see where freewill would get in the way of others ability to succeed.

[CuckingFunt]

So wait, its the nations fault that people aren't smart enough to go to a library, hop on a computer with free internet, and type in some search along the lines of "How to get welfare in the US"?

It's not a matter of being smart enough. It's a matter of specifically and intentionally making that information difficult to attain.

Have you ever read the information that comes with welfare pamphlets and forms? Have you ever had a conversation with one of the workers in charge of conveying that information or providing that help? I have. It's dense to an intimidating degree, especially if you haven't been provided with the tools to cut through the wordiness and figure out what's going on.

And for your list of prejudices, do you want the government to start controlling the way people think? I'm not saying being prejudiced is right or good, but its an individual choice, or are those bad too? I can see where freewill would get in the way of others ability to succeed.

Ins utionalized racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, genderism, heterosexism, classism, etc.

I didn't list individual prejudices. I listed systemic inequalities that operate at an ins utional level. Inequalities that exist in this country and which we all have to navigate, regardless our personal beliefs.

[sam1617]

It's not a matter of being smart enough. It's a matter of specifically and intentionally making that information difficult to attain.

Have you ever read the information that comes with welfare pamphlets and forms? Have you ever had a conversation with one of the workers in charge of conveying that information or providing that help? I have. It's dense to an intimidating degree, especially if you haven't been provided with the tools to cut through the wordiness and figure out what's going on.

I haven't needed welfare, but my parents have had to file for unemployment before... They went and did it. I have little pity for people that want something and then don't pursue it because its too hard to understand, the material is available, if its important to you, then do it. Maybe their unwillingness to put forth the effort is what made them need the welfare in the first place.

As for your "systemic inequalities" how many of those are created by the US government? In fact, I believe all of those are legislated against, what more do you want, beyond them just going away?

[CuckingFunt]

I haven't needed welfare, but my parents have had to file for unemployment before... They went and did it. I have little pity for people that want something and then don't pursue it because its too hard to understand, the material is available, if its important to you, then do it. Maybe their unwillingness to put forth the effort is what made them need the welfare in the first place.

As for your "systemic inequalities" how many of those are created by the US government? In fact, I believe all of those are legislated against, what more do you want, beyond them just going away?

If you really think that everything is hunky dory and that everyone is treated equally in this country, I don't know that there's much I can say on a message board to change your mind.

[sam1617]

If you really think that everything is hunky dory and that everyone is treated equally in this country, I don't know that there's much I can say on a message board to change your mind.

I'm saying that the government treats people equally, maybe not 100% of the time, because people aren't perfect, but the vast majority of the time.

Individuals can treat each other unequally all they want, as long as they aren't breaking the law when they do.

[CuckingFunt]

I'm saying that the government treats people equally

And I disagree.

[boutons_deux]

the list of choices left off telephone, electricity, HD TV, Internet.

Every phone bill has "universal service" tax to subsidize rural telephony, and the stimulus plan seems to be saying rural broadband will have similar treatment.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

That last sentence is the problem, though. You're nuts if you think that everyone in this country has the same opportunity to succeed as you or I do. That is far, far from the case.

ahem

[Supergirl]

ahem

The implication being that because Obama is elected, racism has ceased to exist in this country? Come on. Do you really think Obama would have been elected if he wasn't wealthy? Or light skinned? Or Christian? Yes, his election is a groundbreaking moment in this country, but the idea that there are not still ins utionalized prejudices in this country is laughable.

You can be fired, denied housing or services, no reason needed, if your employer thinks you're not feminine enough, too feminine, not masculine enough, or too masculine, in most places in this country .

You can be fired, denied housing or services, no reason needed, if you are found out to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual in many states in this country.

Women’s average salary is only 72-88% of men’s salary, even when variables such as education, age, position level and job tenure are considered.

And finally, have you ever tried to be a brown-skinned person in a fancy store or an expensive neighborhood? You think the police don't still follow you around thinking you're casing the joint?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

The implication being that because Obama is elected, racism has ceased to exist in this country? Come on. Do you really think Obama would have been elected if he wasn't wealthy? Or light skinned? Or Christian? Yes, his election is a groundbreaking moment in this country, but the idea that there are not still ins utionalized prejudices in this country is laughable.

You can be fired, denied housing or services, no reason needed, if your employer thinks you're not feminine enough, too feminine, not masculine enough, or too masculine, in most places in this country .

You can be fired, denied housing or services, no reason needed, if you are found out to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual in many states in this country.

Women’s average salary is only 72-88% of men’s salary, even when variables such as education, age, position level and job tenure are considered.

And finally, have you ever tried to be a brown-skinned person in a fancy store or an expensive neighborhood? You think the police don't still follow you around thinking you're casing the joint?

thanks for proving a point i wasn't even trying to prove. where in the did i bring up race? you are a damn loon.

[Supergirl]

thanks for proving a point i wasn't even trying to prove. where in the did i bring up race? you are a damn loon.

Because posting Obama's photo in response to CuckingFunt saying
"That last sentence is the problem, though. You're nuts if you think that everyone in this country has the same opportunity to succeed as you or I do. That is far, far from the case."

...was not meant to imply that what racism is no longer an issue because we have Obama for president? What WERE you trying to say then? Sorry I gave you too much credit - credit for, um, having a point? Or something.

[Darrin]

ahem

And My greatest fears are realized. Yes, Barack Obama ushered in the era of no racism and ins utional equality. We have no more work to do. Idiotic.

[Darrin]

The implication being that because Obama is elected, racism has ceased to exist in this country? Come on. Do you really think Obama would have been elected if he wasn't wealthy? Or light skinned? Or Christian? Yes, his election is a groundbreaking moment in this country, but the idea that there are not still ins utionalized prejudices in this country is laughable.

You can be fired, denied housing or services, no reason needed, if your employer thinks you're not feminine enough, too feminine, not masculine enough, or too masculine, in most places in this country .

You can be fired, denied housing or services, no reason needed, if you are found out to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual in many states in this country.

Women’s average salary is only 72-88% of men’s salary, even when variables such as education, age, position level and job tenure are considered.

And finally, have you ever tried to be a brown-skinned person in a fancy store or an expensive neighborhood? You think the police don't still follow you around thinking you're casing the joint?

How about just getting an education? How about we look at the crime rates among the minorities in this country and how they correlate to opportunity? How about we try and put aside the fairy tales and the fringe, criminal arguments and talk about how to fix the damage racism did to our ins utions?

The schools that need the most money are the ones with the least. How do we infuse capital into these schools?

We say the n-word, use drugs, and treat women like crap in music and movies. How do we combat the social problem of glorifying the wrong lifestyles that reinforce the same stereotypes from 150 years ago of black America?

How do we overcome businesses making no accomodations for same-sex partners?

How do we provide access and opportunity to everyone is the fundamental question we must ask. Then we realize the problems that exist.

If all we're doing is fighting the evil, racist remarks and deeds, our laws will take them to task. We have actual work to do to end racism in this country. To give racists nowhere to go but to the fray.

[LnGrrrR]

Same here. I am all for tons of safety nets for people. Checks and balances need to be in place so they don't live off them though. I have stated several times that I believe the only times this nation should run a deficit is during times of war recession. Other times, the debt should be paid down. Deficit spending during hard times will include food stamps, financial assistance, etc. I'm fine with that. I'm just so pissed that our politicians fail to pay down the debt when we can. We have too many people who are lifers on the social programs. Unless they have a disability, they need to be kick off the government teat.

I'm down with that WC.

[LnGrrrR]

That last sentence is the problem, though. You're nuts if you think that everyone in this country has the same opportunity to succeed as you or I do. That is far, far from the case.

Yeah, but there's no way to 'equalize' things without eliminating a great deal of liberty, I feel. Do you have a method?

[LnGrrrR]

There's no magic wand for all these -isms. The only thing that can be done is try to change the perception of the population, and hope for the best.

[DarkReign]

There's no magic wand for all these -isms. The only thing that can be done is try to change the perception of the population, and hope for the best.

No, no, no. The answer is to tax the moderately successful/wealthy and give to the poor for their entire lives.

Its Rich Man's Guilt all over again. We must absolve our sins against the homeless, sick and disadvantaged.

Nevermind those who were in those same positions who made something of themselves.

Namely, my immigrant father in law, my immigrant grandmother, my father after his first divorce. No, no, no...it wasnt fair, they deserve to have shelter and food as a guaranteed, Cons utional right.

That'll fix everything. Generations of losers will continue to produce loser mentality people with similar anti-motivational lifestyles. Why is it low income people are always a lil big around the middle? I dont think food is their problem...

Ridiculous.