Racism and the NBA age limit

[CosmicCowboy]

As much as I would like to think there is not some subconscious racism involved in the debate over NBA age limits, there's really no way around it. When you consider that no one seems to have the same problem with Baseball and Hockey, or even non-black foreign basketball players (Darko Milicic rarely seems to come up in these discussions, for some reason), the common denominator is that we're uncomfortable with black kids making basketball a priority over school.

And while there is probably a lengthy discussion to be had about educational priorities in African American culture, an enforced Age Limit amounts to reverse Affirmative Action against kids who don't need to go to college at the age of 18 to earn a living.

Plus, as Manny pointed out, there's no time table for going to college. The implied "straight to college after high school" rule is overrated... and I believe it causes a lot of burnout with kids who, frankly, aren't ready for a higher education. That, also, is a topic ripe for discussion.

But back to the NBA... if the league gets to a point where High School players are adversely affecting the level of play in the league, owners will see the effects on their bottom line, and they will draft accordingly. But I don't think we've seen any higher a percentage of High School NBA failures than 4-years-of-college failures.

what you are overlooking is that the age limit is being discussed in tandem with a true development league "farm system"...allowing these young players being drafted to get the same money they would receive playing (or sitting on the IL) in the NBA while honing their basketball skills in the NBDL...

[jalbre6]

The real problem that no one wants to talk about is the NCAA.

They basically want back their two years of SLAVE labor from the best basketball players.

Sure, they say they are getting an education (woo a full scholorship to the tune of 25k a year TOPS to big basketball schools) so that justifies their making millions of dollars a year off these kids.

It's akin to sharecropping. It's wrong, and I am one of the most conservative posters on the boards. If they want these kids to represent their schools they need to CHANGE THE AMATUER policy. It's a farce. No one believes it AT ALL. No one buys into it.

What really needs to happen is the government needs to break up the NCAA. No more state sanctioned monopoly.

I completely disagree with this post. Blaming the NCAA on a supposed NBA problem is bull . No one is making these kids go to college. They signed the letter of intent, they know what they are getting into. If they don't want to play by the NCAA's rules, then go play elsewhere. That's why there are such tough sanctions for transfers, academic probation, and the rare cases where corruption is actually caught.

Anyone know who Christian Drejer is? Instead of taking the money from the NBA, where he was a projected first rounder, he went to Florida. He got tired of playing for no salary and figured that he'd get better training in Europe, so he dropped out of school and signed with FC Barcelona. New Jersey drafted him in the second round last year.

It's not sharecropping, slave labor, a farce, or a state-sanctioned monopoly. It is what it is, a trade off. Schools don't give out athletic scholarships just because it makes them feel good. They want to compete, win, and achieve recognition.

Dude, it's an unfair world. Sure, the field is tilted toward the schools and not the players. When your options after your prep career are either (1) go to college on an athletic scholarship, or (2) play pick-up ball while holding down an entry level job somewhere, possibly attending a community college, plenty will choose the former.

Openly paying collegiate athletes will corrupt the damn system even worse than it is already. Can you imagine the bidding wars that might have erupted between UT, Southern Cal, and LSU over Ryan Perrilloux? Or over LeBron if Ohio State, North Carolina, and UCLA could have started throwing money around?

[Wildcat Spur]

I want to add a purely personal spin to this debate.

In the 80's and 90's, what I loved most about the NBA was that I got to see my favorite college legends continue their careers. My friends and I would argue about the great college players and then would argue about them again when they went to the NBA.

Watching them in college gave them a story and a legend that they carried into the NBA with them.

Think about David Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, MJ, Barkley, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Ralph Sampson, Drexler, Shaq, Tim Duncan, etc.. I could go on and on. They all made their legend in college and were even more fun to watch in the pros because I felt like I already knew them. The reason I am a Spurs fan today is because I became a fan of David Robinson in college and have followed him ever since.

With todays "straight to the NBA" group of players, I miss being able to attach a story line to them that makes them even more fun in the NBA.

Purely a personal observation about my love of the game that doesn't really deal with any of the true issues.

[Spurminator]

what you are overlooking is that the age limit is being discussed in tandem with a true development league "farm system"...allowing these young players being drafted to get the same money they would receive playing (or sitting on the IL) in the NBA while honing their basketball skills in the NBDL...

I wouldn't agree with this either because it takes away potential endorsement deals from players who, like Lebron James, don't need skills honed in the NBDL. I'm fine with a Minor League system, but there shouldn't be restrictions on how long you have to play there before making the move to the NBA.

I think you allow the Owners to make whatever moves they feel will benefit their team. If they're willing to waste a roster spot on a Kwame Brown in the hopes that eventually he'll be an NBA player, that's their grave to dig. If it becomes enough of a problem, and teams are finding themselves at the bottom of the standings ten straight years after drafting unproven players, the system will correct itself.

[Kori Ellis]

what you are overlooking is that the age limit is being discussed in tandem with a true development league "farm system"...allowing these young players being drafted to get the same money they would receive playing (or sitting on the IL) in the NBA while honing their basketball skills in the NBDL...

What Stern is proposing is not about being able draft under 20 and put them in the NBDL (and definitely not still paying them NBA level salary). He's proposing a 20 year age limit period this summer. And he's proposing developing a farm system (NBDL) over the next few years, but I've never heard him say that you would be able to draft under 20 even if the farm system were in place.

What you and many others are saying is what I think would be ideal. I'm just clarifying that is not what is being proposed.

[conversekid]

Don't make it an age limit. Make it a requirement to have a Bachelors degree.

If my job can require I have a Bachelors... why can't the NBA? College degrees are requirements for jobs all the time.. even when they don't relate specfically to the job - they just want someone with a college degree.

To make this a "racism" issue is re ed... What a clown.

[MannyIsGod]

They are never going to make it a requirement to have a degree! There are so many players that are never going to put that effort into it, and I don't see what a degree brings to a basketball court.

[ducks]

I do not think making basketball players have bachelors degree is smart
that would just encourage more cheating to pass the test

bringing up race is stupid though

[Spurminator]

If my job can require I have a Bachelors... why can't the NBA?

Nobody's saying they can't, just that it would be stupid. There's no reason to require a degree in the NBA.

[CosmicCowboy]

What Stern is proposing is not about being able draft under 20 and put them in the NBDL (and definitely not still paying them NBA level salary). He's proposing a 20 year age limit period this summer. And he's proposing developing a farm system (NBDL) over the next few years, but I've never heard him say that you would be able to draft under 20 even if the farm system were in place.

What you and many others are saying is what I think would be ideal. I'm just clarifying that is not what is being proposed.

Kori, you are correct that this is the current NBA position but I have read some articles that imply that this is only the starting point for negotiations and the end result after the negotiation process is expected to be closer to the scenario I projected.

I personally think that would be a good thing for the NBA...

[Spurminator]

Bringing up race is not stupid, it's completely relevant to this topic.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think what O'neal meant is right. I don't think there is a concious racist effort underway to hurt black players.

As Spurm said, however, I do feel there may be a subliminal level of racism at work here. That happens in many areas of life that people don't even realize, and most of us are guilty of having those predjudices.

[ducks]

They are never going to make it a requirement to have a degree! There are so many players that are never going to put that effort into it, and I don't see what a degree brings to a basketball court.

a degree brings nothing to work either
you are either qualified to do the job or not. a degree just means you did not quit college and finished.

[Kori Ellis]

CC, you are right that some articles are talking about it. That's because Billy Hunter apparently is pushing for it that way (under 20 to NBDL making NBA salaries). But Stern has said repeatedly that's not his proposal. He is pretty firm about implementing the age limit in this summer's CBA and there's not a farm system in place.

I would actually be for it the way that Hunter is proposing it. I've been talking about it that way on the Round Table videos for two seasons. I just don't think that's what is going to happen.

[MannyIsGod]

A degree means a bit more than that Ducks, but I've worked with plenty of people who had me wondering what the they did to graduate.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think a Mavericks/Spurs farm club in Austin would rock! I can imagine the road trip GTG pictures to check out the up and coming talent...

Houston/New Orleans could put their's in Beaumont...

[adidas11]

This is one of my favorite topics about sports, because it hits on so many different lines of discussion, and political and racial lines as well.

Quote: " But I don't think we've seen any higher a percentage of High School NBA failures than 4-years-of-college failures."

Bingo. I hate it when people use the argument of how the poor high school kids that didn't *make it* in the pros, and how going to college would have benefited them so much. So what? Some players make it, and some don't. It has always been that way, and it doesn't matter if that player jumped straight from high school, or gets drafted after 4 years in college.

If you're going to start putting age restrictions, then I believe that you have to do the same for other sports as well. Heck, they let kids who haven't even finished high school play professionally in soccer (Freddy Adu, MLS), golf (Mic e Wie). And what about all of the kids who get drafted out of high school for baseball??? No one seems to blink an eye about them!

I laugh at the NBA being so concerned about the quality of their play, which I believe is really due to expansion, rather than letting high school kids jump to the league. Think about it, before teams started expanding again in 1989, we were without the Orlando Magic, Miami Heat, New Orleans Hornets, Bobcats, Canadian teams. What that means is that the number of *quality* players coming into the league each year hasn't increased with the additional number of teams added over the last 15 years. What you get then, are essentially X amount of players in the NBA, who would not be good enough to play in the league pre-expansion. That leads to watered down teams.

Setting a 20 year age limit will not help with the *quality* of the NBA product. If anything, players will start going overseas in the future, as foreign teams improve in their quality, become more popular, and pay more money! Think about it!

If the NBA is really concerned about the quality of play, then they should ins ute a TRUE minor league system, similar to what we have in baseball. But they will never do this, because they essentially have a FREE minor league system in college basketball, that accomplishes this task.

And speaking of college basketball, I for one could care less about what happens to college basketball. It will always be there, and the whole idea of college basketball is for inter-collegiate sport, based on education, right!?! And I definitely DON'T favor the idea of paying college athletes. If you do that for the basketball and football players (most who play for schools that don't make big time money, such as I-AA, Division II, and Division III), then you have to pay athletes in other sports like swimming, soccer, hockey, tennis, etc. And trust me, most of those sports don't generate money for their schools to substantiate being paid by the school in excess of the scholarship money they receive.

[jalbre6]

The more I think about this, the more idiotic I think Jermaine's statement is. It's the NBA's court; they make the rules. He didn't do in Portland from ages 18-21 except score 3.5 points a game and collect a fat check for being drafted 17th.

[Sec24Row7]

What the does a college degree have to do with playing basketball?

LOL and whoever said that a college degree means getting a job of 80-300k a year needs to have a ing reality check.

Undergrad degrees are a freaking dime a dozen.

If you don't go to graduate school, you are SOL as far as earning that kind of money without major time put in to your career if you are soley banking on a degree to get you in the door.

It just doesn't make ANY financial sense for a kid that is going to be playing in the NBA to go to college.

NONE!

I don't care what you people say, the ONLY purpose of going to college is to make money and have higher quality of life.

Being a pro basketball player in the NBA will broaden a kid's horizons more than any college could.

If he has an interest in school he can persue it later or even during.

College is not required to be an upstanding member of society.

95% of it is bull anyway and doesn't help you on the job, WHATEVER your field of work may be later on.

[CosmicCowboy]

Bruce Bowen was finishing his degree in 2003 during the championship run. Remember the story about him having to ask his teacher to let him miss a class for a playoff game? She didn't believe he played for the Spurs...

[Sec24Row7]

Exactly.

If a phenom kid wants to go to college he still can.

Doesnt mean he has to play for some Scrub JV team like Duke or NC and get paid 1/50th of what he is worth in scholorship form.

Why on Earth would Lebron James need college?

If a team is willing to pay him he is STUPID not to go to the league.

[spurster]

Myth: Elite NCAA basketball players are getting a college education. Ok, maybe some are.

http://www.pnnonline.org/article.php...rder=0&thold=0

One of the central recommendations of A Call to Action, the Knight Foundation Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics’ 2001 report, was that eligibility for postseason participation should be reserved by 2007 for basketball teams that graduate 50 percent of their players. If that recommendation were in effect now, nearly two-thirds (42 of 65) of the men’s tournament field would have been ineligible to participate, according to the NCAA’s latest graduation rate report.

Myth: High-schoolers going pro are hurting the college game.

[sarcasm]The NCAA tournament was just terrible this year.[/sarcasm]

Myth: The NBA needs minor leagues.

If they are not in college, why can't they play in Europe? By many accounts, players in Europe are learning the skills that are supposedly missing from today's game. Also, for PR reasons, I think it would be better to have the second-tier players out of the US to maintain/increase popularity in basketball worldwide.

Myth: The owners are losing money on bad high-school draft picks.

The salary scale for draft picks in the current CBA has saved them bigtime. Also, I don't think the HS picks are doing worse than the college or international ones.

[ducks]

If you're going to start putting age restrictions, then I believe that you have to do the same for other sports as well. Heck, they let kids who haven't even finished high school play professionally in soccer (Freddy Adu, MLS), golf (Mic e Wie). And what about all of the kids who get drafted out of high school for baseball??? No one seems to blink an eye about them!



why?
the nba does not need to answer the other sports
do they belong to each other
does it mean when baseball goes on strike all sports stop

maybe the nba made the mistake of expansion but they think they can correct the problem with a farm system
what is wrong with that?




Setting a 20 year age limit will not help with the *quality* of the NBA product. If anything, players will start going overseas in the future, as foreign teams improve in their quality, become more popular, and pay more money!

you do realize that players that play overseas do not get in trouble with the law right

I think if they go over seas they will be mature.

[ducks]

Exactly.


Why on Earth would Lebron James need college?

1 highschool player out of 10000000000000000000

[sickdsm]

Watching them in college gave them a story and a legend that they carried into the NBA with them.

Think about David Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, MJ, Barkley, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Ralph Sampson, Drexler, Shaq, Tim Duncan, etc.. I could go on and on. They all made their legend in college and were even more fun to watch in the pros because I felt like I already knew them. The reason I am a Spurs fan today is because I became a fan of David Robinson in college and have followed him ever since.

.

Everybody knows that Shaq made his money in college.

But seriously. Maybe restructuring the way contracts are handled is the key here? The money that guys like Ebi and Darko are making isn't the problem. The problem is they are guaranteed AND there more likely to hit it big after their 3 years is up and leave. Maybe a hard salary cap would help. You wouldn't be inclined to hold onto all these guys based on potential if your making a run when you can sign a vet who can help you NOW. I dont really have a problem with the guys that don't make it in this league, i don't like the idea that guys have to develop. I know the reason why JON left is bc of the Dale Davis trade. But how many people think that Darko if he pans out will be with the pistons in two years? He may very well be a HOF center for the Spurs. Players like Tmac don't reward their teams that drafted them out of HS by signing with them.

Somehow making it much easier for teams to RESIGN there rookies would help a great amount.

I think 20 is too high. I thought about 19 but then i realized that alot of players are older than the average graduate for various reasons.

Maybe the requirement should be one year after HS AND a diploma/GED etc... Otherwise i think you'd have problems with kids quitting HS and playing down at the park, then they'd be elgible to sign the day they turn 18.

And please people, don't you realize how idiotic it is to compare the NBA to Baseball? I don't see guys rotting on a big league roster.

The latest i've heard is that Stern wants to expand. He can't really expand much more than the 30 teams and the WNBA isn't doing squat. He wants the NBDL as a moneymaker. I would NEVER go to a NBDL game if two teams hold the rights to each minor league team. I would however drive an hour or two OR even have season tickets if its within an hour to see my wolves NBDL team play. ESPECIALLY if they made it so you could be drafted at 18 but not play in the NBA till your 19. Wouldn't it be great seeing the stars in the making going at it head to head?