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  1. #76
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    GAME SIX INFO FROM THE BOOK:



    This game was fixed. Using the video evidence, expert testimony, and the eyewitness testimony of Tim Donaghy, you could get a conviction in any jury in the world. You could also get Ted Bernhardt to testify. He is an honest ref.
    No corroboration + untrustworthy witness = reasonable doubt.

    The stories could be believable, but other sources need to come forward.

  2. #77
    Govt, stay away!
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    Yep. This is vinidication for what everyone else already expected.

    If it was your team that got screwed over, youd be just as pissed.

    Whats the excuse for game 1?

    Suck it up Suns fan, the better team won.

  3. #78
    Veteran TheProfessor's Avatar
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    GAME SIX INFO FROM THE BOOK:



    This game was fixed. Using the video evidence, expert testimony, and the eyewitness testimony of Tim Donaghy, you could get a conviction in any jury in the world. You could also get Ted Bernhardt to testify. He is an honest ref.
    Same thing with Miami over Dallas in the Finals. But wait, the league wanted Dallas to beat us that year, right? Except they wanted us to beat the Suns in '07 because we're such a popular, big market team.


  4. #79
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    In defense of his argument shading isn't the same as fixing. The NBA couldn't outright send Bavetta or Crawford or whoever to every big game they want altered and still keep their rigid assignments as you mentioned, but they could start that cycle of assignments knowing which teams are seeded where and allowing a ref to shade towards one team in the game he calls within the rotation. It isn't an outright fix by any imagination but it's a loose manipulation on the series done when the opportunity and motive are available. They can't keep the Spurs or Kings or Thunder or whoever small market from winning a le but they can loosely alter if the timing is right. That is completely plausible even with the rigid ref rotations, especially since only select crew chiefs work the big playoff series and finals.
    My dispute has nothing to do with his allegations of shading; it runs only to his contention that the NBA won't publicize assignments, in essence, because doing so would deprive it of the opportunity to determine or influence outcomes.

    I don't think the league does selective scheduling as things progress; I've got too much data to refute that possibility.

  5. #80
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    No. It's just another of your conspiracy theories. You just seriously posited that the feds would not investigate NBA officials because of the economic benefits provided by the league. Nice try.
    The Feds let Bernie Madoff go for 15 years. They knew about him in the early 1990s, that's on the record.

  6. #81
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    I don't see any suggestion here that Donaghy was a witness to the conversation involving Bavetta. At best, he is relaying second-hand information. Probably why publication was canceled.
    He is not only an eyewitness, but also an expert witness. Expert witnesses can testify according to their opinions. That is a basic rule of evidence.

  7. #82
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    This was the series in which Mike D'Antoni was so digusted with the officiating after game 3 he crumbled up the stat sheet and walked out of the press conference.

    I dont care if theres already another thread, btw. I knew it. I freaking knew it.
    Didn't Tommy Nunez try to help Phoenix in 1997 vs Seatlle ????

  8. #83
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    He is not only an eyewitness, but also an expert witness. Expert witnesses can testify according to their opinions. That is a basic rule of evidence.
    I guess you also know about the rules regarding hearsay as well, right?

  9. #84
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    I guess you also know about the rules regarding hearsay as well, right?
    A good prosecution can get around the hearsay problem.

  10. #85
    Govt, stay away!
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    A good prosecution can get around the hearsay problem.


    Why bother posting on a basketball website if its fixed?

    Take up basket weaving or whatever.

  11. #86
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    He is not only an eyewitness, but also an expert witness. Expert witnesses can testify according to their opinions. That is a basic rule of evidence.
    He was in the room with Bavetta before Game 6, 2002 WCF?

  12. #87
    Win. Whatever it Takes Whisky Dog's Avatar
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    My dispute has nothing to do with his allegations of shading; it runs only to his contention that the NBA won't publicize assignments, in essence, because doing so would deprive it of the opportunity to determine or influence outcomes.

    I don't think the league does selective scheduling as things progress; I've got too much data to refute that possibility.
    You're right, there is no way the NBA could have their pet refs at their disposal to go to whichever game they please and still keep the schedule they keep. That's why it's impossible to fix the games as too much would be needed but it's entirely possible to shade outcomes within the structure they follow. That's what I'm interested to find out because it appears that's what Tim is claiming.

    Jose Canseco definitely helps to show that a disgraceful person can be telling the truth in certain situations.

  13. #88
    Govt, stay away!
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    You're right, there is no way the NBA could have their pet refs at their disposal to go to whichever game they please and still keep the schedule they keep. That's why it's impossible to fix the games as too much would be needed but it's entirely possible to shade outcomes within the structure they follow. That's what I'm interested to find out because it appears that's what Tim is claiming.

    Jose Canseco definitely helps to show that a disgraceful person can be telling the truth in certain situations.

    Jose said he was gonna out 5 more big stars who did steroids two years ago.

    All I've seen from him lately is boxing kangaroos and reality shows.

    I've yet to hear who these 5 super stars are recently.

  14. #89
    Believe.
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    To be able to do such work ahead of time, the league would have to control for any number of crazy factors that it can't control.

    Besides, the rotation isn't "loose." It abides to firm rules to net clear assignments. It's not merely plausible -- it's concrete.
    Crazy factors. Like which teams they want to help, and which games would probably be pivotal. Not that hard. And both of which I have already mentioned.

    If the ref assignments are firm and "concrete" then they actually ARE naming the refs before the playoffs. Please show me that "concrete" list from last season with the date it was published.

    I call bull .

  15. #90
    Veteran TheProfessor's Avatar
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    He is not only an eyewitness, but also an expert witness. Expert witnesses can testify according to their opinions. That is a basic rule of evidence.
    Expert witnesses are limited to scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge that would assist the trier of fact or determine a fact at issue. What Bavetta allegedly said falls outside this. Also, it's hearsay, and I can't think of an exception it falls under at the moment that would get it in. You're essentially offering Bavetta's statements for their truth - that he and other officials fixed games. Even a good prosecutor would have difficulty getting that in, defense would take care of it in limine.

  16. #91
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    Crazy factors. Like which teams they want to help, and which games would probably be pivotal. Not that hard. And both of which I have already mentioned.

    If the ref assignments are firm and "concrete" then they actually ARE naming the refs before the playoffs. Please show me that "concrete" list from last season with the date it was published.

    I call bull .
    After posting that, I thought about it and "concrete" was a poor choice of words. Nevertheless, the rotation is clear and it would be obvious to anyone who closely follows the assignment if the league deviated from it to do what you suppose it does.

  17. #92
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Pathetic Suns fan + idiot 9/11 conspiracy theorist = comedy gold.

  18. #93
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    No corroboration + untrustworthy witness = reasonable doubt.

    The stories could be believable, but other sources need to come forward.
    Donaghy is a credible witness. Nothing he has said has been shown to be untrue. He has an excellent background, as he was an NBA ref over a dozen years, with many awards for merit. He has also agreed to cooperate with the prosecution because he is concerned about corruption in the NBA. He is concerned about NBA fans. He is especially concerned about the anti-small market conspiracy that has robbed much glory from teams like the Spurs.

    He has nothing to gain by telling the truth, and everything to lose.

  19. #94
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    Why bother posting on a basketball website if its fixed?

    Take up basket weaving or whatever.
    This is the point that frequently gets me. If you think the thing isn't an honest compe ion, then why devote much time rooting for a team and players that you're convinced are deprived of a chance to prevail by the machinery of the league?

    Then again, there are people who love wrestling, too.

  20. #95
    Veteran Mel_13's Avatar
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    Donaghy is a credible witness. Nothing he has said has been shown to be untrue. He has an excellent background, as he was an NBA ref over a dozen years, with many awards for merit. He has also agreed to cooperate with the prosecution because he is concerned about corruption in the NBA. He is concerned about NBA fans. He is especially concerned about the anti-small market conspiracy that has robbed much glory from teams like the Spurs.

    He has nothing to gain by telling the truth, and everything to lose.

    Which is why he is lying.

  21. #96
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    Expert witnesses are limited to scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge that would assist the trier of fact or determine a fact at issue. What Bavetta allegedly said falls outside this. Also, it's hearsay, and I can't think of an exception it falls under at the moment that would get it in. You're essentially offering Bavetta's statements for their truth - that he and other officials fixed games. Even a good prosecutor would have difficulty getting that in, defense would take care of it in limine.
    Donaghy is an expert witness concerning the protocols of NBA referees. He is also a convicted game fixer, so he is a certified expert on how NBA games are fixed.

  22. #97
    Veteran TheProfessor's Avatar
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    Donaghy is a credible witness. Nothing he has said has been shown to be untrue. He has an excellent background, as he was an NBA ref over a dozen years, with many awards for merit. He has also agreed to cooperate with the prosecution because he is concerned about corruption in the NBA. He is concerned about NBA fans. He is especially concerned about the anti-small market conspiracy that has robbed much glory from teams like the Spurs.

    He has nothing to gain by telling the truth, and everything to lose.
    He's a convicted felon. He has shady associates with mob connections. Just the fact that he has agreed to work with the government would give the defense ample ammunition to impeach his motives.

  23. #98
    Win. Whatever it Takes Whisky Dog's Avatar
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    Jose said he was gonna out 5 more big stars who did steroids two years ago.

    All I've seen from him lately is boxing kangaroos and reality shows.

    I've yet to hear who these 5 super stars are recently.
    Doesn't take away from the fact he exposed a lot of big name guys which later was proven true. Even a liar will tell the truth if the truth benefits him. Tim D may or may not be in that boat, but he certainly would have access to the knowledge he's claiming.

  24. #99
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    Donaghy is a credible witness. Nothing he has said has been shown to be untrue. He has an excellent background, as he was an NBA ref over a dozen years, with many awards for merit. He has also agreed to cooperate with the prosecution because he is concerned about corruption in the NBA. He is concerned about NBA fans. He is especially concerned about the anti-small market conspiracy that has robbed much glory from teams like the Spurs.

    He has nothing to gain by telling the truth, and everything to lose.
    He's a felon who has lost his job -- a fairly good paying job at that. He has everything to gain by telling a spectacular story. He can sells books, he can do paid interviews, he can do any number of things to drum up income through his "revelations." And he has an apparent need to drum up income, given that he's no longer working in a lucrative field.

    He defrauded a league by working in cahoots with mafiosos, too. So he's a felon with mob ties.

    But you're right -- by and large, those guys are known for their credibility and truthfulness.

  25. #100
    Believe.
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    My dispute has nothing to do with his allegations of shading; it runs only to his contention that the NBA won't publicize assignments, in essence, because doing so would deprive it of the opportunity to determine or influence outcomes.

    I don't think the league does selective scheduling as things progress; I've got too much data to refute that possibility.
    I said no such thing - that publishing the list would deprive the NBA of the opportunity to determine or influence outcomes. They would still do it. It would just be harder to hide.

    If you, using your data, can predict exactly which refs will be working exactly which games before the playoffs start - and you have proof of this (you can refute not just the probability, but even the possibility of selective scheduling (a tall order indeed) - then I will stfu. If not, then you should.

    edit: removed the word "concrete" after seeing your last post.

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