Couple arrested for refusing to tip waiter, claim bad service

[BacktoBasics]

(n) gratuity (an award (as for meritorious service) given without claim or obligation)


They can bill you gratuity but good luck getting it to stick.

[whottt]

(n) gratuity (an award (as for meritorious service) given without claim or obligation)


They can bill you gratuity but good luck getting it to stick.

Just because everyone is calling it a gratuity doesn't mean it's going to be legally considered one.

Observe:


6. Q. Is a mandatory service charge considered to be the same as a tip or gratuity?


A. No, a tip is a voluntary amount left by a patron for an employee. A mandatory service charge is an amount that a patron is required to pay based on a contractual agreement or a specified required service amount listed on the menu of an establishment. An example of a mandatory service charge that is a contractual agreement would be a 10 or 15 percent charge added to the cost of a banquet. Such charges are considered as amounts owed by the patron to the establishment and are not gratuities voluntarily left for the employees. Therefore, when an employer distributes all or part of a service charge to its employees, the distribution may be at the discretion of the employer and the service charge, which would be in the nature of a bonus, would be included in the regular rate of pay when calculating overtime payments.



That's why they notify you in advance either on the menu or on a placcard in plain sight by the host stands that gratu ies will be automatically included on parties of x number of patrons. IOW, it's something the customers are made aware of before they are served by the restaurant and their failure to comply can easily be considered theft of service.



In any case, say they do win, they've been arrested, they will be getting their food rubbed on people genitals, stepped on, rubbed in ass cracks spit on, bugs and otehr matter thrown in it, and there are lot of gay waiters that have things like HEP C and HIV btw, and believe it or not they are the usually the meanest ones in my experience, likely served their drinks in dirty glasses, and it's going to take them a long time to get it and it will be cold by the time they do...by any one who recognizes them.


Yeap...those people really showed that waiter who the boss is.

The wisest thing they can do is stop going out to eat for a while...a good while.


What will be their next act of brilliance, telling the doctor who is going to perform heart surgery on them to go himself?

Always be nice and respectful to the person handling your food, fast food, restaurant, lunch lady or otherwise. It's simply stupid not to be...

[whottt]

One other bit of advice, if you are a cop, never ever ever go into any restaurant wearing your uniform where you cannot watch your food and drink every step of it's journey to you.


*shudder* I still have nightmares from some of the things done to poor unsuspecting cops food and drinks.

[Jacob1983]

In my opinion, a tip should always be optional and considered as a reward for good service. It should never be mandatory. If it's mandatory, then that means a person do a ty job and still be rewarded. A tip is a reward for doing a good job or at least a decent job.

[Richard Cranium]

Apparently a tip isn't whottt its cracked up to be.

[Blake]

Apparently a tip isn't whottt its cracked up to be.

just fyi...I found out it's pronounced "wo" and then the 3 t's.

[whottt]

In my opinion, a tip should always be optional and considered as a reward for good service. It should never be mandatory. If it's mandatory, then that means a person do a ty job and still be rewarded. A tip is a reward for doing a good job or at least a decent job.

I agree with everything you said except when it comes to big parties.

You know why? Because big parties take more time, they take up more tables, and they are more work and that hurts you on busy nights.

One table of 8 takes as much time to turn as 4 tables of 4. You see just by the table being there they are cutting his tips in half it the business is strong. That is why I know the waiter did not deliberately delay getting their food and drinks. He wanted them gone, as did the restaurant, because they are a loss of revenue over smaller tables in the same spots. For more work. And when it is busier these factors are multiplied which means the table, if stupid and inconsiderate, is more likely to stiff the waiter.

And if they do stiff the waiter, it represents about a 4 time loss over what he would have made had they never showed up at all.


The waiter does not like you on a busy night big table, he wants you out of there as fast as he possibly can get you out of there. Because you are more than likely costing him money for more work, even if you leave a 15% tip.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Why don't you take it up with the restaurants? Do you think it's the waiters saying, pay us under the regular minimum wage, we love that!

1. If they are paying "under the regular minimum wage", surely they are breaking the law which would be easy to prove given their payslips.

2. As I said in my original post, the problem is having a minimum wage system which pays less than a living wage. If people are paid a living wage, tips can then become and optional extra for good service, as they are in the rest of the world.

[EricB]

awesome to see the anti business big government posters chime in here.

Hi ruff.

[leemajors]

1. If they are paying "under the regular minimum wage", surely they are breaking the law which would be easy to prove given their payslips.

2. As I said in my original post, the problem is having a minimum wage system which pays less than a living wage. If people are paid a living wage, tips can then become and optional extra for good service, as they are in the rest of the world.

Waiters make anywhere between $2.25 and $5 an hour, and they usually have to tip out the kitchen, runners, and bar - usually a percentage of their sales that night. Credit card tips are obviously recorded, and a percentage of their sales is also reported as income because it's obviously hard to tax cash tips, which are up to the server to report.

[leemajors]

That said, it never hurts to tip anywhere, if you see a reason for it. It can only help and serve to make the world a better place for us all.

This. You can easily make someone's day by leaving a good tip. Before I worked in a restaurant, I usually always tipped at least 15%. I now usually tip at least 25%, and my life has been better for it. I get comped drinks/food at bars/restaurants I go to frequently, and the staff is always happy to see me and my friends.

[baseline bum]

Waiters make anywhere between $2.25 and $5 an hour, and they usually have to tip out the kitchen, runners, and bar - usually a percentage of their sales that night. Credit card tips are obviously recorded, and a percentage of their sales is also reported as income because it's obviously hard to tax cash tips, which are up to the server to report.

In Texas. In Cali they make the regular minimum wage + tips. I'm not sure which is more prevalent nationwide.

[ploto]

In Texas. In Cali they make the regular minimum wage + tips. I'm not sure which is more prevalent nationwide.

In Europe they make decent regular wages and tips are often just the leftover change.

[MiamiHeat]

You know why tips are the way they are?

So waiters try extra hard to give you good service.

If they do a ty job, or get an hourly wage and don't care if they treat you good, then what power does a customer have?

The Tip is the power.


Police should be ashamed they arrested this couple.

[whottt]

They knew before they ate that the bill was going to include the gratu y automatically. Period. It's not optional in that cir stance. It is not something that is paid to the waiter, it is something that is paid to the restaurant. Hence, theft of service.

[Bean Dip]

If the service is bad the tip reflects said service. Simple as that.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

awesome to see the anti business big government posters chime in here.

Hi ruff.

Paying people a living wage is "anti big business"? GTFOH. The rest of the developed world seems to manage paying a living wage and still having big business, why is the US any different?

I'm not anti-big business, I'm pro-fairness. There is a middle ground where both do okay - if conditions go too far one way other the other someone gets screwed.

Under the US system, restaurants are simply externalising the cost of staff (waiters) onto others, namely the customers, rather than paying the staff a wage they can live on. The costs don't go away, someone always pays, and that's ends up being the 15% you fork out. I'd rather the business take care of paying the waiters (rather than pretending that is someone else's responsibility), and then I can tip really good service which goes to the person who provided it if I so choose.

Waiters make anywhere between $2.25 and $5 an hour, and they usually have to tip out the kitchen, runners, and bar - usually a percentage of their sales that night. Credit card tips are obviously recorded, and a percentage of their sales is also reported as income because it's obviously hard to tax cash tips, which are up to the server to report.

And who gets screwed if there's any short-fall in that system? Looks like the guy at the bottom, the waiter, to me. The guy at the bottom always gets screwed, that's life, but the US minimum wage (below living wage) system is an entrenched way of screwing the guy with the least power. Wonderful.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

They knew before they ate that the bill was going to include the gratu y automatically. Period. It's not optional in that cir stance. It is not something that is paid to the waiter, it is something that is paid to the restaurant. Hence, theft of service.

Not arguing the theft point, but there are some other interesting aspects to this.

So if the "gratuity" (which it is not - it is a service charge) is going directly to the restaurant, they must pay their waiters a decent wage (well above the minimum), otherwise how would the waiter survive?

An even bigger question is why call it a "gratuity" when it is actually just a business cost they are separating from their other costs and adding on top of everything (and why are they doing that)? And why 18%? Have they calculated that 18% of their operational costs are waiter's wages? I doubt it.

Sounds to me like an elaborate way to rip everyone off - both their customers and waiters.

[Kori Ellis]

Not arguing the theft point, but there are some other interesting aspects to this.

So if the "gratuity" (which it is not - it is a service charge) is going directly to the restaurant, they must pay their waiters a decent wage (well above the minimum), otherwise how would the waiter survive?

The waiter might get below minimum wage. This set gratuity is only for parties of X number or more... which are not the norm.

An even bigger question is why call it a "gratuity" when it is actually just a business cost they are separating from their other costs and adding on top of everything (and why are they doing that)? And why 18%? Have they calculated that 18% of their operational costs are waiter's wages? I doubt it.

Sounds to me like an elaborate way to rip everyone off - both their customers and waiters.

It's pretty much the norm here. If you have large group, there's usually an 18% (sometimes 15 and sometimes 20 percent) gratuity on top. We get it a lot of times at GTGs ... even at casual restaurants like sports bars.

[whottt]

The funniest thing about this conversation is I know realize why Euros and other International visitors to this country were always such ty tippers. Because you guys do not have a clue how it works here .

I don't know why it's so hard to understand, I can understand exactly how you guys are saying your system works, but I know if I were a waiter I would not like it as much as the system that is over here. The waiter makes a lot better money in America with the tip system it has.



Anyway...

All restaurants are different and it also depends on what the State Laws say.

Not all the tips are automatically included in the bill like that. It's usually only on larger parties they do that. That way it can be included in the bill and the waiter is protected.

If the people leave cash it usually goes straight to the waiter(although not always).

As for what they do with it, they usually give it back to the waiter, sometimes they will deduct a pct of it fo the bartenders and buspeople, sometimes they will have a tip pool for all the waiters. So it's not really theft of any kind and there's nothing deceptive about it.

Some places do include the tip on all parties regardless of size, but those are usually private clubs, and those waiters don't make under the minimum wage. They make about 15 bucks an hour plus tips over the automatic gratuity.



To pay the waiter under the minimum wage the restaurant just has to be able to prove they make over 50 bucks a month or something like that in tips. Which is easy to do, since it takes about one shift to do that. But it's those mandatory grats they usually use to prove that, since those go straight to them.


It's also a great deal on taxes for the waiters, because waiters are only required to report 8-20%, or whatever they recive in credit card charges, of what they make in tips, and those automatic grats usually cover that too.


So iow, it pays very well. I personally do not consider the system to be broken.


As for the last part of what you asked, why call it a mandatory gratuity, it's just what we call it, and not everyone calls it that anyways. I think they do usually refer to it as a service charge when it is automatically included but I don't believe there is any law that says calling it an automatic or mandatory gratuity instead of a service charge prevents the refusal to pay it from being theft of service, since it is going directly to the restaurant. I think if it's on the menu that you are going to be paying it, then it is part of the bill.


Anyway I don't really know all the laws but the bottom line is that it's mainly big tables that get the automatic gratuity or service charge, and the reason is because they take more time and more tables.

[mogrovejo]

Paying people a living wage is "anti big business"? GTFOH. The rest of the developed world seems to manage paying a living wage and still having big business, why is the US any different?

I'm not anti-big business, I'm pro-fairness. There is a middle ground where both do okay - if conditions go too far one way other the other someone gets screwed.

Under the US system, restaurants are simply externalising the cost of staff (waiters) onto others, namely the customers, rather than paying the staff a wage they can live on. The costs don't go away, someone always pays, and that's ends up being the 15% you fork out. I'd rather the business take care of paying the waiters (rather than pretending that is someone else's responsibility), and then I can tip really good service which goes to the person who provided it if I so choose.

And who gets screwed if there's any short-fall in that system? Looks like the guy at the bottom, the waiter, to me. The guy at the bottom always gets screwed, that's life, but the US minimum wage (below living wage) system is an entrenched way of screwing the guy with the least power. Wonderful.

I'm not sure what do you mean by living wage. I'm also not sure why a minimum wage bellow the living wage screws anyone. What screws people is the simply existence of the minimum wage: jobs whose return is bellow the minimum wage threshold (and that some people may want to take) are simply not offered. The minimum wage is no more or no less than a way of suppressing jobs. It has no other consequences.

In any case, on average waiters in America make more money than in Europe. And the American minimum wage is one of the highest in the world, it'd easy rank top-10 in Europe (and the federal minimum wage, not accounting for states with higher minimum wage rates). I'm not sure if you understand what you're talking about.

The funniest thing about this conversation is I know realize why Euros and other International visitors to this country were always such ty tippers. Because you guys do not have a clue how it works here .

I don't know why it's so hard to understand, I can understand exactly how you guys are saying your system works, but I know if I were a waiter I would not like it as much as the system that is over here. The waiter makes a lot better money in America with the tip system it has.

I prefer the American system. The incentives are better placed for everybody - a colleague of mine published a paper on this but I can't find it.

My experience as a costumer goes the same way: American waiters tend to do a much better service - are more client-orientated - than others in the rest of the world.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'm not sure what do you mean by living wage. I'm also not sure why a minimum wage bellow the living wage screws anyone. What screws people is the simply existence of the minimum wage: jobs whose return is bellow the minimum wage threshold (and that some people may want to take) are simply not offered. The minimum wage is no more or no less than a way of suppressing jobs. It has no other consequences.

In any case, on average waiters in America make more money than in Europe. And the American minimum wage is one of the highest in the world, it'd easy rank top-10 in Europe (and the federal minimum wage, not accounting for states with higher minimum wage rates). I'm not sure if you understand what you're talking about.

Why didn't you look up "living wage" then? It is a concept in widespread common use:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

and if you hate wikis:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-living-wage.htm

or thousands of other pages.

A minimum wage below the living wage means that someone working 40hours a week in a minimum wage job still can't make ends meet for the basic necessities. Sound fair? Not to me. Sounds like a poverty trap to me.

As for suggesting this: "The minimum wage is no more or no less than a way of suppressing jobs. It has no other consequences", that is utter nonsense. Minimum wage laws protect workers, who have little power in the job market, from predatory practices by employers. There's been a lot written on the subject, maybe you should read some of it or talk to a job market economist.

BTW, for future reference I generally don't discuss things I don't understand, and you ought to look things up before you call someone out on them.

I prefer the American system. The incentives are better placed for everybody - a colleague of mine published a paper on this but I can't find it.

My experience as a costumer goes the same way: American waiters tend to do a much better service - are more client-orientated - than others in the rest of the world.

I agree with that - in general, I think American service is better than most other places.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

whottt - just one more question. I can see that the system might work better for the (good) waiters as you have described it, but why does the consumer put up with the service industry externalising its labour costs onto them? In such a consumer-driven society, I'm surprised people aren't up in arms about that!

[ploto]

...why does the consumer put up with the service industry externalising its labour costs onto them? In such a consumer-driven society, I'm surprised people aren't up in arms about that!

There are still plenty of people who go out to eat in couples or small groups who tip poorly or not at all. They don't seem to care.

[whottt]

whottt - just one more question. I can see that the system might work better for the (good) waiters as you have described it, but why does the consumer put up with the service industry externalising its labour costs onto them? In such a consumer-driven society, I'm surprised people aren't up in arms about that!

Well it's not like anyone forces people to go to a restaurant with a waitstaff...that's what cafeterias, buffets, order at the cashier, and fast food restaurants are for. And like I said earlier, people try to start restaurants that are sort of do it yourself, you can even cook for yourself if you want, they just don't stay in business very long.

Also as mentioned earlier, smaller groups usually don't have the gratuity included in the check like big groups do.