Ludden: Spurs sub in Barry and Mohammed

[whottt]

And BTW...Barry isn't the only guy that's come to the Spurs and had to adjust to people wanting him to shoot more...

Robert Horry had the same problem when he first got here...I discinctly remember him getting assripped by Pop and called out by Spursfans for not taking shots...I think it's kind of stupid to expect guys that have spent a half a decade living in peace with Kobe Bryant and Gary Payton to be shot chuckers.

On top of that...Barry has averaged 10ppg in his career playing over 30 minutes per game...does that seem like Vinnie Johnson to you?

Barry's game is making plays for others, playing unselfish ball and setting up his teamates to make plays...and taking key shots when called upon...actually he's a whole of a lot like Robert Horry.

He's not freaking Vinny Johnson...look at his career scoring numbers per minutes played. B

[ChumpDumper]

taking key shots when called upon.

Wide open threes are key.

[whottt]

That is a steaming pile of crap. Barry himself said he was here to hit threes, and he admitted he was doing badly in that regard. You can't ignore direct quotes from Manu and Barry, no matter how much you try.

I don't think anyone has ever argued that Barry has had a subpar year from 3 this season...

The argument is over the reason why and how to fix it...and whether he still helps the team when he is struggling from 3...

You guys think starting him is the solution...I don't think it is. I think it's because his role has never been that limited before and at the same time expected to be so prolific...

You guys elect to say his stuggles are because he is a gutless heartless pussy...I say it's because it's new role to him and he's probably being asked to do it more than he ever has before...in fewer minutes.

But only a total asshole still calls Barry gutless or a pussy with the way he's stepped up in the final minutes of games this season....and with Duncan and the like out.

[MadDog73]

So, what does everyone think the odds are Barry will start again tomorrow?

[ChumpDumper]

You guys think starting him is the solution...I don't think it is. I think it's because his role has never been that limited before and at the same time expected to be so prolific...

Starting him expands his role and gives him more minutes, which is all you have been arguing. It also gives us Manu's energy off the bench and the chance to put him on Boykins fro a different look.

What exactly is your solution, provided you even think there is a problem?

[kskonn]

So, what does everyone think the odds are Barry will start again tomorrow?

I think they are pretty good. If he can hit a couple of outside shots it will open up the lane for duncan and for Ginobli to get in to the lane.

I would not expect to see him starting during the next series.

[whottt]

One other thing Chump...

Barry shot 357% from 3 this season...I know that's by far the worst 3 point shooting season in NBA history according to Spursfans...even though it's better than Steve Kerr...the all time leading 3 shooter shot in his first season here...and better than Jack shot...

But he made 100 threes in 280 attemps...that's second only to Bowen...and Bowen is also a 3 point champ who played nearly 11mpg more....and Bowen gets a of a lot more open looks than Barry does since he plays nearly all his minutes with Duncan, Manu and Parker.

You know what would have made him a 40% shooter this season? Making 12 more threes in that same 280 attempts...

So you difference in Barry struggling or doing his job...is 12 threes spread out over 81 games or .14 3PM's per game...that makes you an asshole. 12 ing threes.

On top of that he attempted more 3's than anyone on the team this season...off the bench.

So what you have here is a guy that..

Lead the team in 2 PT PCT
Was second on the team in PPS
Lead the team in FT PCT
Lead the team in assist to TO ratio
Lead all our guards in fewest TO per 48
Lead the team in 3PA
Was second in 3PM to only Bowen

On top of that he was the best shooter in clutch situations this season on the team and played his best ball of the season with Duncan out...

So none of your criticism adds up...It's just crap. Go suck Hedo!

[whottt]

Starting him expands his role and gives him more minutes, which is all you have been arguing. It also gives us Manu's energy off the bench and the chance to put him on Boykins fro a different look.

What exactly is your solution, provided you even think there is a problem?

I am all for expanding his role...but where you and I differ is on how to do that...I don't see how being put on the court with Duncan and Parker can expand your role...get him more open looks? Perhaps, but he's still going to be camping out at 3 as much if nor more...but that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to perform better...he's not Steve Kerr...we just need to admit it...who the is?

He probably will get some plays run for him that were previously run for Manu, since he is in the starting line up...and I like that...I think that's a good thing...what I don't understand is why the Spurs refuse to do that for him when he is coming off the bench...they do it for Manu, just like that.

My problem with this is...Barry preforms better getting a chance to be the playmaker...it helps his whole game..and more importantly, it helps our teams offense...I don't think that's going to happen just because he is starting...

And furthermore...starting him in no way means he's gonna get PT in the 4th when we are haing a TO prone slopfest on offense and choking...and I think that's when he's got his greatest value...that's what you do to fix him...starting won't make any difference...4th quarter PT in the midst of a choke will, he calms down the offense and makes it run smartly, and IMO he's got the best court awareness on the team...he doesn't try to force stuff...and that's good for our team.

But that's just my opinion...and god knows I am higly biased against choke jobs.

[ChumpDumper]

Barry shot 357% from 3 this season...I know that's by far the worst 3 point shooting season in NBA history according to Spursfans.

Not me. I wanted him to take those open shots.

So none of your criticism adds up.

Your contention is that nothing has ever been wrong with Barry's game this season.

You're wrong.

Barry said so.

Take it up with him.

[ChumpDumper]

Perhaps, but he's still going to be camping out at 3 as much if nor more.

Again with the "Barry can't spot up" myth. Please quit underestimating Barry.

My problem with this is...Barry preforms better getting a chance to be the playmaker...it helps his whole game..and more importantly, it helps our teams offense...I don't think that's going to happen just because he is starting...

I agree with his value as a playmaker, but more overall minutes = more playmaking.

And furthermore...starting him in no way means he's gonna get PT in the 4th when we are haing a TO prone slopfest on offense and choking.

If he's hitting his threes and being involved in the offense throughout the game, he is much less likely to be passed over for crunch time. Even you can understand that.

[whottt]

Let smeagol speak for himself.

We don't need to be distracted by Heal+Mercer=multiple rings.

Stay on point and say why starting Barry is a bad idea or STFU.

smeagol is my boy and he doesn't argue just for the sake of arguing...he argues when he's got a point to make and I am just giving him fair warning that you aren't exactly the guy to try and have an openminded argument with...he'll be fair with you but he's wasting his time if he expects you to concede the valid points he makes...and he does expect that since he does the same for you. I am just looking out for my boy...he doesn't need it but he's gotten my back in enough arguments(inspite of many disagreements) to where I am going to do the same for him.

[ChumpDumper]

smeagol knows who he's dealing with. I asked questions and he gives answers. I appreciate that. He has valid points but still needs to clarify his opinion in this matter.

[whottt]

Not me. I wanted him to take those open shots.Your contention is that nothing has ever been wrong with Barry's game this season.

You're wrong.

Barry said so.

Take it up with him.

Your criticism of Barry is that he passes too many open shots...

His criticism of himself is basically that he missed 12 threes this season...

His criticism in no way justifies your criticism...and the fact that he lead the team in 3pa, as a bench player, totally destroys your afraid to shoot argument...if he's afraid them Manu and Bowen must be terrified since Barry was far and away the leader in 3pa per 48 mins. He lead the team in 3PA inspute of playing 10 mins less per game than our starting shooters.



And again you try and use a players team first at ude to justify your own wanting to take a dump on them in the middle of Pop sucking....What do you want him to say? Pop is an idiot on offense?

[ChumpDumper]

His criticism in no way justifies your criticism...and the fact that he lead the team in 3pa, as a bench player, totally destroys your afraid to shoot argument.

Bull . If you are going to sit there and say Barry never passed up an open shot this season, you are delusional and need serious help.

And again you try and use a players team first at ude to justify your own wanting to take a dump on them in the middle of Pop sucking.

And again, bull . You simply can't concede any criticism of any player you support out of some misguided sense of justice, trying to even out those you think wronged them. You said so, so don't front that you are objective at all.

[whottt]

smeagol knows who he's dealing with. I asked questions and he gives answers. I appreciate that. He has valid points but still needs to clarify his opinion in this matter.

He sat there and said he's not against the move but you guys are full of crap when you act like there is no difference between starting and coming off the bench...he's basically right on that and he backed his reasoning up well...what don't you understand?

How many guys have won MVP's off the bench? The best players usually do start...and McHale didn't stay on the bench for his entire career now did he?

[ChumpDumper]

you guys are full of crap when you act like there is no difference between starting and coming off the bench.

I asked what that difference really amounts to -- and I'm still waiting for a real answer.

How many guys have won MVP's off the bench?

Are you saying Manu is an MVP now? That he would be an MVP only if he started?

The best players usually do start...and McHale didn't stay on the bench for his entire career now did he?

Neither did Manu. If all the injuries didn't happen, who knows what would've happened.

The only argument I've gotten is that coming off the bench might cut into Manu's personal accolades and consequentially the vicarious pride his followers feel. No one has convinced me he's all that interested in those.

[whottt]

Bull . If you are going to sit there and say Barry never passed up an open shot this season, you are delusional and need serious help.

I proved he passed up fewer 3pa than any player on the team this season...he lead the team in 3pa inspite of playing 10 minutes less per game than our two starting shooters and he lead the team in 3pa per 48...

What have you backed up your argument with...other than your ass.

And again, bull . You simply can't concede any criticism of any player you support out of some misguided sense of justice, trying to even out those you think wronged them. You said so, so don't front that you are objective at all.

I am the most objective guy on this entire board...for me it's all about winning...if that means I have to go against homerism supporting the home town boy at the expense of winning then I will do so..if I think Shane Heal gives us a better chance at winning than Anthony Carter... I am not ashamed to admit it...If Pop does something stupid I am not going to overlook it because of the fantastic job he has done in the past and in other aspects of the team...regardless of what popular sentiment may be.

I am not going to act like the Spurs FO are perfection personified just because the Spurs are my team...

I am damn sure more objective then you...you basically toe the line for the Spurs whether it's a screw up or not...and even worse you refuse to admit it when it was an obvious screw up.

[ChumpDumper]

I proved he passed up fewer 3pa than any player on the team this season.

No you didn't. That's preposterous, even for you. Where is your link to the "passed up open shot" stat. Show it now.

I am the most objective guy on this entire board.

Except you admitted your own biases and how it affects your arguments.

you basically toe the line for the Spurs whether it's a screw up or not.

Yeah, I always say Pop and the FO are perfect in every way. You really got me there -- except that I don't and you didn't.

[MadDog73]

Just to be clear, whottt, are you saying starting Barry was an obvious screw up?

I don't mind you bashing Pop, as long as you give him credit when he does something right (like win a game by 28 pts).

But I've pretty much decided that this tirade you're on is some weird way to exhume any kind of "jynx" or "blame" you feel you may have for the Spurs losing. I really think you believe that if you give the Spurs any praise at all, they will just pack up and lose.

[smeagol]

Smeagol, do you like Manu more than the Spurs and does this affect your opinion about his coming off the bench?

I already said, more than once, in more than one thread, that I'm ok with the move as long as it helps the Spurs.

Am I thrilled with the move? Not really.

Do I like Manu more than the Spurs? Yes. I started following basketball because of Manu. But after three years I have learned to love the Spurs (this site and the fans that post here are also a big reason for me liking the Spurs).

Does the fact that I like Manu more than the Spurs affect my opinion about him coming off the bench? Not really. I stated what my opinion is above (probably against most of what my fellow countrymen opine regarding the whole situation).

I'm convinced that what's best for the Spurs (i.e. winning the championship) is best for Manu, within certain logical limits. If Manu, being the second best Spur, gets demoted for no reason to 12th man and sees no playing time (extreme unrealistic scenario), I would like to see him traded.

I would also hope this is a temporary move.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think this move would've happened without all the injuries -- including Manu's physical problems. The whole Devin/Barry/Beno thing would've worked itself out and there would be a regular rotation. Unless Barry's production stays at the level of game 2, the Spurs will probably pick up where they left off before the injuries next season.

[whottt]

No you didn't. That's preposterous, even for you. Where is your link to the "passed up open shot" stat.

That's your job since you're the one making the accusation...I proved he lead the team in 3pa and 3pa per 48 minutes, playing 10 minutes les per game and less minutes with the two time MVP(you know, that guy that gets others open looks) than our two starting shooters did...

Basically you are saying a career 40% shooter got more open looks in 21 minutes off the bench than our 2 starting shooters got in 28 and 34 minutes, playing with Duncan...you are an idiot if you think that.

And a lot of those 21MPG Barry got were due to Duncan and Manu injuries...the two best creators on the team...

And Barry attempts substantially more threes per 48 than any other player on the team...and he also a greater PCT of his shots are threes than any other player on the team...61% of his shot attempts this season were threes...that's nearly 20% more than any other player on the team.

Show it now.

You show it...or else explain to me how a career 40% 3 shooter got more open looks in 21 MPG off the bench playing fewer minutes with the 2 time MVP than our 2 starting shooters did...

I want to see you try and claim that...Chump!

Except you admitted your own biases and how it affects your arguments.

Everyone has biases to an extent...those that admit it are more objective than those who don't...I never said I was without bias.

Yeah, I always say Pop and the FO are perfect in every way. You really got me there -- except that I don't and you didn't.

You never let the sac get out of your reach.

[ChumpDumper]

That's your job since you're the one making the accusation.

Everyone here has seen him pass up wide open shots. That is a truth and a given.

You show it.

You said you proved he took all his open shots. You didn't.

those that admit it are more objective than those who don't...

I'm sure you have a stat for that too.

[smeagol]

I asked what that difference really amounts to -- and I'm still waiting for a real answer.

Are you really telling me you do not see a difference between starting and coming off the bench? even with all the argument spinning you do, I refuse to believe you are this blind.

Are you saying Manu is an MVP now? That he would be an MVP only if he started?

Huh . . . ? Did whottt say that?

I believe what whottt meant goes back to my argument: MVP > 6 MOY. Do you want to dispute this argument too?

The only argument I've gotten is that coming off the bench might cut into Manu's personal accolades and consequentially the vicarious pride his followers feel. No one has convinced me he's all that interested in those.

I said, three weeks ago, that I thought benching Manu to boost some other player's confidence, might be detrimental to Manu's own confidence (as it was last year). He himself has made it clear it is not. He has made it clear he wants the best for his team, he trusts Pop and that he will embrace the move. Therefore, I was wrong.

[whottt]

Just to be clear, whottt, are you saying starting Barry was an obvious screw up?

IMO, a great coach finds ways to utilize the strengths of his players rather than trying to shoehorn them into a system that doesn't suit their strenghts...a great coach can do this without making wholesale changes to the system...Pop is good at doing this on D and with defensive players...he's not good at doing it with offensive players.

I don't mind you bashing Pop, as long as you give him credit when he does something right (like win a game by 28 pts).

I give him credit for a lot of stuff...in that game I could give him credit for motivation...

But a coach is under the microscope in close games...that's when he has the most impact on a w or a l...and Pop got blackeye on that in game 1 of this series...

But I've pretty much decided that this tirade you're on is some weird way to exhume any kind of "jynx" or "blame" you feel you may have for the Spurs losing. I really think you believe that if you give the Spurs any praise at all, they will just pack up and lose.

Hey...I'll be the happiest guy on the board if Pop continues the season long trend of making me be wrong when I have called him out...but I am gonna every time we choke in the 4th quarter and Barry doesn't get any PT...

I think those two things go hand in hand...and I can back it up if I have to do so(but I've already done that many times).

But for now? I don't think Pop has what it takes to win this series after choking the first game. Defense isn't going to be enough...the Nuggets are a good defensive team too...and I just flat out don't think he's Karl's equal on coaching both sides of the ball...and he now has to be to win this series.