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I also believe people are jumping a bit too soon on the Durant bandwagon. The guy has yet to play a playoff game!!!
Yeah, just look at the Hornet's losing record since Paul went down. The Hornets are clearly better without him.
I also believe people are jumping a bit too soon on the Durant bandwagon. The guy has yet to play a playoff game!!!
Dwight and KG are overrated...
Paul is not even a top 5 guard in the league much less a top 50 player.
He don't contribute to winning because he has to dominate the ball so much and he does that because everyone else on his team sucks walrus . He's not the problem...
Lakers fans already accept that Lebron is better then Kobe right now. Try again.
You're penalizing Dirk for being in better shape, thus allowing him to play more minutes? That doesn't hurt Dirk's case in any way. It only helps his argument that he is able to stay on the court longer.
You should know by now Manufan loves the "He plays more minutes which somehow means he's worse" argument.
Im not won of those that say they are better without him that is foolish. In fact, i questioned the guy the hornets fan that said trade C3p (hornetsguy?) in another thread (Your team thoughts) on his belief that collison is BETTER than C3p and I love collison I'm a Bruin alumni!
As for the head2head argument OBVIOUSLY they play on different teams and have different systems. But just using stats is just as foolish as just using head2head ...
the game has become perimeter based ...
BOTH franchises were in the lottery that is HOW they got Dwill and C3P p
Utah is better but not great the only advantage Dwill has over C3p is that he played for only 1 coach. Both have one all-star type forward on their squad (west & boozer)and a former all star (AK & Peja) bunch of hard working role players and a limited center (okafor offensively Okur defensively)
Yet Dwill's squad has the better win % head to head and overall ...
Dwill was drafted first had the better college career (went to le game)and has taken his team to WCF
by many measures I can argue Dwill
IF Dwill is NOT better ... i dont see how you can argue C3p is CLEARLY better ... which was my ORIGINAL argument.
But we will see who will have the better career overall ...
Overall numbers favor Chris Paul pretty clearly. Better scoring, assists, rebounds, all shooting numbers, fewer turnovers. They all favor CP3, for this season and for their careers. Head-to-head match-ups should be looked at, but it's not always about an individual match-up. Sometimes it's how the entire team plays a better, sometimes it's coaching schemes. Arron Afflalo seems to have Kobe Bryant's number defensively and even outplayed him the last time. You're not going to argue Afflalo is a better player based on head-to-head match-ups.
Deron Williams' team has a better winning record overall since the two have come into the league, but they've also just had better teams in Utah than in New Orleans, and better coaching.
But if you want more evidence, look at how each is regarded by coaches and NBA analysts/writers. Look at their honors and awards. CP3 has three all star selections, two all NBA selections, two all NBA defensive (ok yeah I know), ROY, and came in second place in MVP voting two years ago. Deron has one all star selection and one all NBA selection.
Statistics favor CP3. Honors favor CP3. Coaches, writers, experts, and fans would say CP3 is better. And the one argument for Deron is that he has better head-to-head numbers.
I think the evidence would allow someone to justifiably say CP3 is clearly better than Deron Williams. That might not be true, but there is enough of a case to make the contention.
Everybody has Kobe's number defensively lately. His offense has been horrible since the injuries started.
As for Deron, CP3 has better numbers but he also has the ball more. Put Deron on the Hornets and I don't doubt he could put up similar stats.
He already puts up "similar stats." That doesn't mean he could do what CP3 does. And Deron has the ball in his hands almost as much as CP3. I don't see a big difference. And, it's also been do ented that he runs the show in Utah now. Jerry Sloan lets Deron call the plays, something he didn't even do with Stockton.
Similar stats as CP3, I could see that. As good? I doubt it. I don't think he can shoot as efficiently, rebound as well despite being bigger and stronger, and I think the pick-and-roll offense actually helps him as a playmaker. I think CP3 creates out of his talent more so than Deron Williams. If Deron had to create more out of isolation without as much reliance on the pick-and-roll and how Utah really runs it to the ground, I'm not convinced he'd be the playmaker or assist guy he is now. Deron is still a stud, don't get me wrong. But, I think Chris Paul is the better player, not by a huge margin, but clearly better.
I wont call you crazy.
JAm I respect you a lot and Im glad you put some reasoning in your rebuttal.
But I disagree. Yes he ahs better stats but you cant (not you specificaly) that he has better stats butthen also pull the he has a better team and coaching card as well. Doesnt that cancel it out?
C3p holds the ball alot on fast breaks he rarely pushes the ball ahead a la Nash or Jkidd (though Nash holds the ball a lot in the half court).
In most of these debates best PG, SG, SF etc Maybe only Lebron holds a definitive advantage over his peers (this season) at his position and Maybe Dwight. To me you can make strong cases at every other spot.
I guess i have taken my view based on my prefference as a coach for bigger PG's AND more IMPORTANTLY how they have played in the playoffs (which mean much more than regular season) and in the elimination series for both guys Dwill has been CLEARLY better IMHO.
C3p destroyed Dallas but was found wanting in the key games vs. BOTH denver and San Antonio. I just think it is EASIER in a playoff scenario for C3P to be contained by a good defensive team.
And i have stated on here many times the playoffs and the rings matter more to me than regular season highlights and stats.
I have watched C3p from his days in the ACC (and Dwill in the Big 10)...and to me it just seemed he has shown a tendency to not raise his game against the very best in the ACC tournament the NCAA tournament or the NBA playoffs.
Also to me when someone is the best they raise their game when matched with someone on "their level".
Afflalo did great against Kobe his UCLA guy I love his game ...but that is a small sample size and you are comapring apples and oranges.
Dwill and C3p have faced off much more than that entered the league at the same time play in the same conference (i said division earlier)
Plus the argument of all NBA awrads etc. to me is weak ... there have been many questionable choices both for and agianst even Kobe.
Look C3p is great but again watch the playoffs IF the Hornets even make it.
CP3 has better playoff stats in every area other than 3-point shooting than Deron Williams.
Neither has a ring, so mentioning that means nothing when it comes to these two.
Tried to find a common opponent in the playoffs. It's not in the same post-season so there are other different factors involved like the health of each team and what not, but the Jazz faced the Spurs in the 2007 playoffs and lost in 5 games and the Hornets faced the Spurs in the 2008 playoffs and lost in 7 games. Here are their respective basic stats against a common opponent only one year removed:
Deron Williams
25.8 PPG
7.8 APG
3.6 RPG
3.2 TO
52.7% FG
Chris Paul
23.7 PPG
10.7 APG
4.4 RPG
2.3 TO
57.4% FG
Chris Paul played better and his team won more games. I mean, if you want to look at a small sample like head-to-head match-ups, this is just as fair to look at when they're playing in the post-season (what matters to you more) and against a common (albeit not exactly the same) opponent.
I don't think it's a matter of physical condition, Duncan could play 38 min per game but Pop is probably the most conservative coach when it comes to regulating his players' minutes, with any other coach Tim would be playing 35/38 minutes per game.
DAF86's List
1. Manu
2. Manu
3. Manu
4. Manu
5. Manu
6. Manu
7. Manu
8. Manu
9. Manu
10. Manu
11. Manu
12. Duncan
13. Tony
14. Dice
15. Bonner
Fixed
P/S: Argentina > South Park
Also, I love how people automatically assume that Paul is a bad defender because he is one of the smaller guards.
Paul is a better defender than Williams..PG defense is overrated in general, it isn't possible to be an elite defensive PG in this current era IMO..Williams is an average individual defender and Paul is too small defensively, but CP3 is one of the best help defenders I've seen in a while from the PG position..
Paul and Williams have around the same usage% this season and you have the same results as always..CP3 has 4% less possessions than he did last season, yet he's putting up virtually the same assist numbers that he previously did..this clearly shows that Paul is very capable of adapting his game and being effective, even with the ball in his hands less..
The Hornets offense relies on Paul to create far more than Utah needs Williams..the Jazz have multiple playmakers on their teams, while NO only has Paul and West(West can't create for others though)..Chris Paul has an unreal 11% of his points coming off assists..he CARRIES the Hornets..
It's not a huge margin, but there's a margin..Paul's stats are better across the board, he's better defensively and his team puts more responsibility on him(while you might think this means the same thing as having the ball in your hands, it doesn't..Williams is involved in more of his team's plays than Paul, but his coach and teammates allow him to have a more versatile arsenal)..
Another key is that New Orleans usually plays at one of the slowest paces in the NBA..this season they have used more speed to acclimate their younger players, but Paul's stats would be slightly better with the adjustment for pace..
KG is there on reputation alone
He probably couldn't. And even if he did, he would be a dead man walking at the end of the season.
South Park doesn't harbor Nazis.
I was wrong on that part, but I was right that this would just turn into a Dirk/Duncan debate, with spurfan debating against everyone else. Always does.
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