what i don't understand is if these s think the u.s. is so terrible in every aspect from education to foreign policy why don't they move? they don't seem to be doing anything about perceived problems except in this forum. dan jr's
We're losing our edge in education and the current foreign policy isn't very popular with a little less than half of the general population, which is a polite way of putting that since a little over half supports it, it's controversial. Terrible isn't the right word. Unsatisfactory probably fits a little better.
What kind of example are lawmakers showing here, debating the creation v. evolution theories and how much ass a 17 year old cheerleader can wiggle? No wonder education needs reform.
High-Tech Brain Drain
May 5, 2005; Page A14
The Wall Street Journal
Bill Gates probably didn't shock anyone last week when he said companies like Microsoft have difficulty finding enough qualified Americans to hire. That's old hat. But he turned a few heads when he said immigration policies are threatening U.S. compe iveness like never before. Asked how he would change current law, Mr. Gates replied, "I'd certainly get rid of the H1-B visa caps. That's one of the easiest decisions."
The government grants what are known as H-1B guest-worker visas to immigrants in specialty fields like math, science, engineering and medicine. But the number of such visas issued annually is capped at 65,000. That quota is not only unnecessary but ridiculously inadequate, as evidenced by the fact that the 2005 limit was reached on the very first day of the government's fiscal year.
Business leaders have long complained that these caps, combined with a U.S. education system that's not producing enough science and engineering talent, will inevitably affect domestic growth and global compe iveness in the technology sector. The U.S. ranks sixth world-wide in the number of people graduating with bachelor degrees in engineering. Meanwhile, China is graduating some four times as many engineers as the U.S., and Japan -- with less than half of our population -- graduates twice as many engineers as we do.
According to a report by the Higher Education Research Ins ute at the University of California at Los Angeles, the percentage of incoming undergraduates planning to major in computer science declined by more than 60% between 2000 and 2004, and is now 70% below its peak in the early 1980s.
So it's no wonder that companies like Microsoft, Intel and IBM have set up research operations in China and India, which also leads the U.S. in engineering grads. But outsourcing isn't always about cutting costs. Mr. Gates told National Public Radio that he's not looking for cheap labor.
"We would have done some work in those markets [China and India] regardless," said Mr. Gates. "You want to have some diversity, particularly in research itself, where you can draw on the talent pool that's there. But there's no doubt that if we had easier hiring here in the U.S., we would be doing more in the U.S. and less outside the U.S."
With so much of the immigration debate focused on low-skilled workers, it's easy to forget that artificial curbs on the entry of foreign professionals and international students can restrain industry's ability to acquire intellectual capital. Immigration policies that limit access to global talent in a global marketplace won't keep U.S. innovators and entrepreneurs on the cutting edge. Nor will they help us continue as the world's science and technology leader.
What I don't understand is why you do not recognize your ignorance in regards to the subject at hand.
Instead of opening your mind all you offer is reactionary blather.
Stop wasting this forum's collective time.
the article only says that not many american students don't want to major in math or science. it doesn't mean they are less educated.
So American students are turning down lucrative career opportunities in their own country because...?
actually bill gates is full of . it is not that there aren't enough people, it is that he can pay the h1bs way less. it is also why many companies are outsourcing. cheap labor for the same work. outsourcing is not just for factory jobs.
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laugh all you want... i know bill is full of , but i could care less. i'm a shareholder of msft... he will say anything to make a buck...and that is all that matters..shareholder profit. outsource, outsource, outsource... as long as the stock goes up, it is good..
Did you miss the part about the US lagging behind a number of countries in the number of engineering and science graduates?
Also, if those Indian and Chinese engineers and scientists do not end up in the US, then they'll end up elsewhere, perhaps in Europe or Canada. As much as it may shock you the world does not totally revolve around the United States. If this nation continues to see its scientific knowledge base decline due to a poor public education system and some misguided nationalistic protectionist stupidity then it is going to pay the price soon enough.
I'm surprised that for someone who is so sure of American superiority you are afraid of seeing Americans compete with scientific talent from abroad...
where did i say i was afraid of seeing americans compete with scientific talent from abroad?
i still fail to see where i said i was afraid of them... i just said that bill gates is just trying to get cheap labor. it is not wrong. as long as microsoft stock goes up, i'm happy.
The United States cannot produce enough students who are capable of taking advantage of undergraduate and graduate level engineering and science programs so we have to import students from abroad to fill those roles. Then because of our fear that those "furriners" are taking our jobs we limit how many can stay. So they go back to their own lesser developed countries or perhaps they go to a developed one.
Don't tell me that American kids aren't interested in studying engineering. It's not a secret what an entry level chemical or electrical engineer fresh out of undergrad can make. The real problem lies in how many are actually prepared for an undergraduate engineering program, which takes us back to the sorry state of K-12 public education in the US...
I agree that Bill wants cheap, young, around-the-clock programmers.
This is the other end of the education problem. With outsourcing, WalMarting, importing cheap labor, and a general overall race-to-the-bottom, where is the big incentive to get an education?
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos029.htm
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos031.htm
Earnings
Median annual earnings of chemical engineers were $72,490 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $58,320 and $88,830. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $48,450, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $107,520.
According to a 2003 salary survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, bachelor’s degree candidates in chemical engineering received starting offers averaging $52,384 a year, master’s degree candidates averaged $57,857, and Ph.D. candidates averaged $70,729.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos262.htm
Earnings
Median annual earnings of electrical engineers were $68,180 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $54,550 and $84,670. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $44,780, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $100,980. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of electrical engineers in 2002 were:
Scientific research and development services $77,410
Semiconductor and other electronic component manufacturing 72,670
Electric power generation, transmission, and distribution 71,640
Navigational, measuring, electromedical, and control instruments manufacturing 70,430
Architectural, engineering, and related services 66,980
Median annual earnings of electronics engineers, except computer, were $69,930 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $55,930 and $85,980. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $46,310, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $103,860. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of electronics engineers in 2002 were:
Federal government $78,830
Architectural, engineering, and related services 72,850
Navigational, measuring, electromedical, and control instruments manufacturing 70,950
Semiconductor and other electronic component manufacturing 70,800
Wired telecommunications carriers 62,670
According to a 2003 salary survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, bachelor’s degree candidates in electrical/electronics and communications engineering received starting offers averaging $49,794 a year; master’s degree candidates averaged $64,556; and Ph.D. candidates averaged $74,283.
Earnings
Median annual earnings of biomedical engineers were $60,410 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $58,320 and $88,830. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $48,450, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $107,520.
According to a 2003 salary survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, bachelor’s degree candidates in biomedical engineering received starting offers averaging $39,126 a year, and master’s degree candidates, on average, were offered $61,000.
Several things.
The proportion of students who have the ap ude to be engineers will be low regardless of well our education system works.
Even if that were not the case, there is not an infinite demand for engineers. The fact that you have to point to an elite field for good salaries should tell us something.
I hate to say it, but engineers are next (if not already) for outsourcing..
Oh, they already outsource a lot of engineering work.
However, as of now you can only count on the third-world engineers to do number-crunching kinds of work or rudimentary design, at least in my field. They still have no concept whatsoever of things like functionality, reliability, or project execution. That's still a generation away.
You can say that about other professions as well. Apparently the difference is that for engineering, the students are not as well prepared. That takes us back to the education those students receive prior to college.
Sure, the system is not working. We have to fill the demand in this country for engineering talent from abroad. Even with such occupations offering rather attractive salaries.Even if that were not the case, there is not an infinite demand for engineers. The fact that you have to point to an elite field for good salaries should tell us something.
..as if this country was even producing enough to begin with.I hate to say it, but engineers are next (if not already) for outsourcing..
I'm not really that interested in the debate over our educational system. It is, in my mind, fatally flawed and no amount of "fixing" is going to revive it.
We stopped teaching children way back when and set our sights on indoctrinating through the expression of social ideals.
That's why Johnny can't read, make change, or know that if you take a hair dryer into the bathtub with you, you're gonna die.
We've become more concerned with whether or not Johnny is socially aware and sensitive to the diversity of those around him and, whether or not Johnny's own esteem is adequately considered.
Stigmatism and shame have been tossed aside -- I think they had a place.
For all its flaws, NCLB forces schools to get away from all that pansy liberal bull and teach. Yeah, they're teaching the performance tests, but at least you know if a kid can pass that test, he's learned something.
A lot of teachers and principals are fighting it, because they want to teach the "fun," "creative," "socially aware" curriculum, but then when their test scores are miserable, the administration has to tell them either that they have to get with the program or the districts will find somebody who will.
Expect lots of unemployed liberal educators in the next several years sniveling and whining.
and little pansy kids aren't even keeping score in sports anymore! that drives me nuts...
and no spanking anymore! what is that all about.. i asked my girlfriends nieces and nephews what is more effective, time outs or spankings.. .they said spankings.
I'm not hopeful...but, it's a nice idea.
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