How many times must this fallacy about defense be debunked? The Suns give up as many points as they do because they play a fast pace that gives both teams a lot of possessions.
A team that lets you score 90 points on 80 possessions is considerably worse defensively than a team that lets you score 100 points on 100 possessions. I guess it is difficult for a significant portion of the population to comprehend that. Hooray American education.
In terms of their defensive efficiency, which is how many points they give up per possession, they are middle of the road. They are not great defensively, but neither do they suck.
But when a team like the Spurs slows down their pace - what then?
They have no response. The Suns can beat another mediocre defensive team like the Mavs, but can they beat good Defensive teams?
What's the Suns record against the Pistons, Rockets and Spurs this year?
EDIT: Suns vs Pistons 1-1, Rockets 2-2, Spurs 1-2.
Last edited by MadDog73; 05-10-2005 at 10:14 AM.
I would not want to be in a track meet with the Suns I think if we slow up the pace a little we can expose them and take advantage, but if it is fast paced all the way through we may be in some trouble.
I think the Suns' defensive efficiency against the Spurs would be the same, maybe even a little better, if the pace were slowed down.
Where they would really be hurt is on offense because they depend on their fast-paced transition game for easy shots and wide-open threes. In the halfcourt, they could go to Amare a lot, but Marion, Q, and Joe Johnson would be much, much less effective.
Really? You think the Suns could defend the Spurs better if they slowed the game down? I guess we'll have to wait and see...
My point (and I admit I wasn't clear on this) is that the Suns play a totally different style of basketball from Championship teams in the past. If they win the Championship, then I'll start believing in this "Run and gun" style of play. But until that happens, I'll bet on the "defensive stops = won games" style of past Champions: Spurs, Pistons and even Lakers (who even though didn't play consistent defense, were notorious for completely shutting down teams in key moments).
Phoenix has not won that series yet. I can see the Suns winning the next game too, but I can also see Dallas gaining some momentum back while winning two games in Big D.
i dont see any reason why we should be scared of the suns.
come on. if youre a fan trust in the spurs.
The Spurs' offense has a well-do ented tendency to bog down in the halfcourt against even middling defensive teams.
In the open court, Parker absolutely owns Nash. Who will stop him?
Who will stop Tim? Who will stop Manu?
Wait, there's Big Dog and Robert Horry shooting threes, too!
It will be a fantastic, exciting series.
I think Dallas will adjust and stretch this series to at least six games.
I thought the Mavs looked a little tired and unmotivated. Remember this is the same Dallas team that looked like they were going to get swept by Houston after two games.
Phoenix is great, for sure, but the Spurs at full strength are still going to be the better team in a seven game series, IMO.
Jason has been playing very well, and Stackhouse seems to be playing with lots of energy. Both went off quite well vs. Houston, and I expect them to produce vs PHX, after the s -shock of Game1 wears off. I think they may have been still thinking about the Houston series last night, not fully adjusted to a new opponent. and of course Suns were fully rested and @home.
Dirk has to maintain his RBs and ASTs, while adding some more scoring. I'm impressed that Dirk was driving quite frequently last night.
If Mavs can find more offense, esp in attacking the basket rather than settling for jumpers, they will have no problems scoring against defense-less PHX, and then Mavs have to tighten up their defense.
Dampier was a disaster. In the early minutes, he missed a layup/putback and fumbled 2 dish-offs right under the basket. Sorta set the tone for the rest of the Mavs bad opening quarter. And then he klutzs his way into early foul trouble. Mavs continue to be weakened by their perennially sucky front-court.
1. No team wins the Championship without paying its dues. Iconic one is Detroit learning from Boston, Chicago learning from Detroit. The Spurs learned from Utah. Nobody gets there in the first try.
2. No team wins the Championship without playing defense. Name an NBA Champion in the modern era (since 1980) that won it all with bad defense and great offense.
There's not one. Not. A. Single. One.
The fallacy to your argument is that Phoenix's defense isn't bad. The 2001 Lakers were worse on defense.
Good enough to sweep the Spurs...
How many points did the Lakers allow that series?
Untrue.
2001 Lakers -- 102.4 points allowed per 100 possessions
2005 Suns -- 103.7 points allowed per 100 possessions
But to bolster your underlying point, here are some other NBA champions, one of which is generally regarded as among the greatest ever ('87):
1987 Lakers -- 103.2 pa/100p
1985 Lakers -- 104.0 pa/100p
Statistically, these Suns are very similar to the Showtime Lakers. But they lack the requisite playoff experience, and Steve Nash, as great a year as he had, is no Magic Johnson.
Like I said in the other thread. Suns are a basketball mirage, they will be exposed soon
What were the 1999 and 2003 Spurs pa/100p?
You just completely avoided (but unintentionally contributed to) my point. Try to keep up.Good enough to sweep the Spurs...
I believe that due to rules changes, they should be compared against other teams in their respective seasons. The Lakers were 19th in the league that year in Defensive Efficiency. The Suns were 14th this year.Untrue.
2001 Lakers -- 102.4 points allowed per 100 possessions
2005 Suns -- 103.7 points allowed per 100 possession
Don't throw around stats. Question is, could those Championship teams lock down when they had to? Was there an existing Defensive Ethos? All Phil Jackson teams had it, and he had players off the bench he could plug in as stoppers. Kobe was a good on-the-ball defender and Shaq was a shot-blocker.
LAL and Houston might have been the weakest defenders of the le winners in the post-Pistons era. (Before that, you had a primarily offensive game.) But even then, there were defensive standouts, like Olajuwon, and a commitment to playing solid D.
Phoenix? Not even a mediocre defensive team. They have no speakable bench. Their MVP is clearly a defensive liability. They have two relatively decent shot-blockers (Stoudamire, Hunter). A very good offensive team can take advantage of them and they are vulnerable to penetrations, particularly from the point guard and, in slightly lesser volumes, the shooting guard.
Mr. Body has a point. Even though the Lakers weren't a great defensive team, when they absolutely had to get a stop, or slow down an opposing scorer, they had players like Michael Cooper to do it.
Phoenix doesn't have that guy.
But how do you know? What you're saying is that Phoenix cannot play defense in a slow-paced game, based on what they have done previously. However, the 2001 Lakers and 1995 Rockets showed that they could adjust, so until you see the Suns play the Spurs in the Playoffs, you really don't have any idea whether they will be able to adjust or not.
My point is that while I believe the Spurs can exploit the Suns' defense and disrupt their offense enough to win, saying the Suns "don't play any defense" or that they are "less than mediocre" is inaccurate.
And let's not underestimate Shawn Marion as a defender. He's no Hakeem or Shaq, but he's a very good perimeter defender who can cause a lot of havoc and create fast break opportunities.
Game on = would be a dream series alright.
Can see it now, SI, NBA.ComESPN etc. mainly pick Suns.
Then of course = Spurs thump em.
A team that has no devotion to defense can suddenly 'turn it on' when the situation warrants? Phoenix has one game plan: blow them away with offense. How in the world are they going to stop a good offensive team, continually, when they need it?
they will need to trade 3 for 2...for seven games...a very risky game plan if thats what it comes to but it can and will be successful some nights...don't underestimate that team...
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