Should rings determine G.O.A.T?

[Goran Dragic]

Greg Oden is better than Dirk, and Amare. His PER says so.

I never said anything about PER. There's no singular criteria or stat that dictates MVP is what I was getting at. It's a combination of individual performance (measured by several stats), how good/ad your team is, and how good/bad the supporting cast on your team is.

[HarlemHeat37]

He still was the best player in the league, hands down. And the Bulls only won 47 games in the 88-89 season.

I know, I said "ignoring the 50 win part", meaning, even if Jordan had won that year, he would have deserved it from an individual standpoint(without looking at the other candidates, since I didn't look it up)..

I brought up that season because I only looked at the 32.5 PPG that you mentioned, so I thought he won MVP that year..your stupidity..

I would agree that Kobe was the best regular season player in the NBA that year, maybe best player overall..I could argue for Wade though, after what he did in the Finals that year..

[Veterinarian]

Greg Oden is better than Dirk, and Amare. His PER says so.

It's not Just PER its every advanced statistic. Even ones that aren't in any way complicated like Rebound rate (the percentage of available rebounds you grab), Assist ratio (your rate of assists per possession), block ratio, steal ratio etc. We've been through this already and established you had no intelligent comebacks for these facts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156993

lmao at complete nobodies on this forum regulating luva, what a fall from grace from his Black All American days.

[midnightpulp]

Greg Oden is better than Dirk, and Amare. His PER says so.

Greg Oden is a bad example since he played a limited amount of games. And these days, Amare is closer to being Dirk's equal than in years past. But Dirk's career PER is still 2 points higher overall, so try again.

[HarlemHeat37]

You're ignoring what DOK already brought up, which is that Kobe benefited from the same criteria in his 2008 MVP season..

[Veterinarian]

This is another perfect example of the theory that you all created (the MVP should go to the best player on the best team) is full of . Malone was never the best player in the league, and never even had the best team, but when it came to Kobe, this was always the standard you all put before him.

What are you trying to say re ? Jordan was the best player in the league, led it in scoring, and led his team to 69 wins and he didn't win, that's way more of a gripe than throwing up a bunch of points on a team and not winning.

[Veterinarian]

On a totally unrelated not is Pakistani rap any good? I can't figure it out tbh:



lol piggers

[barbacoataco]

The MVP award in the NBA is often a re ed choice. Nash won B2B and was not even a top 5 all around player, nor did his team even make it to the championship. Players like MJ, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe were the best players of their time, but often the award went to someone else.

[BUMP]

. Which is why I never mention MVP's, stats, les, or any awards when comparing players.

There's countless times where you've done this Paki, give me a sec and let me look them all up

[midnightpulp]

Ok, Chris Bosh is a better player than Tim Duncan. Prove me wrong.

You're strawmanning me somewhat. I never stated that PER should be the deciding factor when trying to determine who the better player is. PER doesn't and can't measure defense (outside of blocks and steals), which is a big part of the equation when comparing two players.

I use PER as a counter when you start arbitrarily throwing around PPG and PPG only in player comparisons, as you do ad nauseum when you compare Karl Malone to Tim Duncan, or Kobe to another given player. Why do you revere this stat so much but neglect other stats?

As for your question, Bosh is probably the slightly better player these days, all things considered, at least in the regular season.

[Booharv]

It's not Just PER its every advanced statistic. Even ones that aren't in any way complicated like Rebound rate (the percentage of available rebounds you grab), Assist ratio (your rate of assists per possession), block ratio, steal ratio etc. We've been through this already and established you had no intelligent comebacks for these facts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156993

[Goran Dragic]

Which is why I never mention MVP's, stats, les, or any awards when comparing players.

Actually, Kobe is the only person with a Bill Russell. Two to be exact.

[midnightpulp]

He sure did. Which is why I never mention MVP's, stats, les, or any awards when comparing players. If you recognize talent, and have a thorough understanding of the game, you don't waste time with PER and all this other BS. No matter how you look at it, inferior players will always come out on top when you use Hollinger's system.

Then why does Jordan have the all-time highest PER?

And of course the "watch the game" argument holds merit. If you "watch the game," you'd know Tim Duncan is a better player than Karl Malone, but regarding that comparison, you always bring Malone's PPG into the discussion when it's convenient, then at the same time, dismiss any statistical counterarguments, like PER.

[HarlemHeat37]

Career PER is the most flawed way to use that stat IMO..individual rankings in PER are the best way to use it, and you also have to understand that there are certain aspects of the game that PER underrates(defense and assists, for instance) and other aspects that become overrated in that stat..

It's basically a box score summary stat, so there isn't really a point of mentioning it while mentioning raw stats along with it..

Here's how I would have went with MVP, off the top of my head..I'm using the criteria of having a winning team as well..

2000- Shaq, no brainer..
2001- Shaq..
2002- Duncan..
2003- Duncan..
2004- Garnett..
2005- Shaq..
2006- Nash..
2007- Nowitzki..
2008- Bryant..
2009- Lebron..
2010- Lebron..

[barbacoataco]

I think the point is that in the playoffs, in head to head matchups, when all the sudden the defense gets cranked up 10 notches, and the crowd is going crazy, and your opponent is a top player that wants to win, THAT is the moment that determines greatness. Often the only way to compare great players, in any sport, is when they meet up and the championship is on the line. Winning Wimbledon, the Tour de France, the Heavyweight Championship, the Olympics, the World Series. There is a moment where the standard of excellence is set so high that only the best can rise to the top, and at that moment, you can see who is the best.

[BUMP]

I never mention MVP's, stats, les, or any awards when comparing players.

This is why I don't understand the argument here. Kobe was awarded Player of the Decade. Not Duncan, not Shaq, not Lebron, not AI, but Kobe.

If you are going to judge it based off of play you will have to go with Shaq...

Olympic Gold
4 les
3 Finals MVP's
3-peat

And Shaq has the bigger name than TD. The only thing TD has done that Shaq hasn't is stay on the same team and a bit more consistent. At the end of the day Shaq was bigger than TD, but TD was the better player. If TD had the co-stars as Shaq, (Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, James) he'd have 8 les.

Kobe's 5th le trumps Duncan's third finals MVP

Kobe 3 allstar MVP's trumps Duncan's two season MVP's

Kobe's three-peat and back2back without Shaq trumps Duncan's being the best player on 4 le teams.

Kobe's 81 trumps anything Duncan has ever accomplished on the court.

Kobe's Gold > Duncan's Bronze

Kobe's wife > Duncans wife

Kobe's two retired Jersey's will trump Duncan's one.

Some of Lakaluva's finest....

First of all, I can name plenty of Bigs more skilled than Duncan. That whole Duncan is the greatest PF only flies because he's a nice guy. It's a nice guy award. Everyone knows Duncan is a pussy, and was afraid to play his natural position of center. Don't get me started on Duncan's ass.

Listen you little sucker. Duncan was never the best player in this league. He was never even the best big man in this league.

You put Malone on those Duncan's teams and they go back to back. And this is no knock on Duncan, he's just not a beast.

[Muser]

Damn luva getting bukkaked by the whole board again.

[MavDynasty]

great ing post bump.

[MavDynasty]

Damn luva getting bukkaked by the whole board again.

No surprises there. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

[BUMP]

According to LakaLuva Duncan>Shaq but Duncan was never even the best big in the league.



Who was the best big in the league during those years then, got?

[MavDynasty]

Of course this is the same dumbass who got a C in Calculus with a ing tutor. I mean, how ing stupid can you get?

[TheLakaluvaLibrary]

Great, great thread.

This entire conversation will definitely be added to our collection.

Now where to file it? Hmmm?

Ah, yes. 678.893 (History/World War II/Hiroshima, Nagasaki).

Like those ill fated Japanese cities, Lakaluva got the atomic bomb dropped on his ass in this thread.

Regards,

The Lakaluva Library.

[MavDynasty]

Great, great thread.

This entire conversation will definitely be added to our collection.

Now where to file it? Hmmm?

Ah, yes. 678.893 (History/World War II/Hiroshima, Nagasaki).

Like those ill fated Japanese cities, Lakaluva got the atomic bomb dropped on his ass in this thread.

Regards,

The Lakaluva Library.

[BUMP]

Ah, yes. 678.893 (History/World War II/Hiroshima, Nagasaki).

Like those ill fated Japanese cities, Lakaluva got the atomic bomb dropped on his ass in this thread.

[atxbuttknocker]

I hate to re-use old material but...

Tbh some of these advanced stats involve math and even in the case of PER calculus I think, so it's no surprise Luva pays them no heed. He couldn't make heads nor tails of them if he tried.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaagggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!