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I was thinking the same thing. What's up with that Killa?
The Spurs have two chances to beat the Lakers, slim and none!
The Spurs have two chances to beat the Lakers, slim and none!
I don't know people continue to list Duncan as a PF. He's strictly a C at this point. Even when paired with Splitter, Duncan will be guarding the C.
So it's not "Duncan vs Bosh" and it'll only be "Duncan vs Gasol" when Odom is in the game and Gasol shifts to C.
No! His best days are behind him.
I see it like this:
Heat
Lakers
.
.
.
.
Orlando
.
rest of the league.
Ok I'm fine with that Then you have Duncan V Bynum if he's not hurt hum Duncan wins this or Duncan v Gasol if Bynum is hurt even and Splitter/Blair over Odom. Odom is very well rounded and not a bad player but gets shoved around by Blair inside and he's not so good outside as to overcome that, and isn't as good as Splitter at the finesse stuff as seen in head to head match-ups.
And here we go...
2003-2004 Dwyane Wade started his NBA Career. Let's just get to facts.
Does anyone realize that DWade's Time in MIA vs. The Spurs is a losing one?
11-4-2003 SAS 1 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231104024
Spurs win 80-73
Ginobili is the player of the game, with no Tim or Tony. DWade didn't play due to a hip issue.
12-6-2003 SAS 2 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231206014
Spurs win 86-70
Both Ginobili & Wade play but it's other guys who pick up the scoring.
11-12-2004 SAS 3 - MIA 0
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=241112024
Spurs win 93-84
Ginobili blows up for 29, 7 & 7. Add 6 Steals & a 1 block
Wade out with a sprained ankle.
2-13-2005 SAS 3 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250213014
Spurs lose 92-96
Both players score well. Wade has 28 points on 26 shots. Ginobili has 24 points on 17 shots.
12-7-2005 SAS 4 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251207024
Spurs win 98-84
Wade scores 31 on 20 shots. Ginobili goes for 27 on 16 shots.
1-20-2006 SAS 5 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260120014
Spurs win 101-94
Wade goes for 36 on 29 shots. Spurs cruise thanks to TP's 38 on 18 shots.
11-22-06 SAS 6 - MIA 1
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261122024
Spurs win 106-86
Wade goes for 18 on 17 shots. Ginobili goes for 17 on 9 shots. See the pattern here? In terms of effectiveness...it's no contest.
2-11-07 SAS 6 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270211014
Spurs lose 100-85
Wade goes for 26 on 19 shots. Ginobili goes for 26 on 16 shots.
11-7-07 SAS 7 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271107024
Spurs win 88-78
Wade out with a DNP. Ginobili scores 25 on 12 shots.
1-24-08 SAS 8 - MIA 2
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280124014
Spurs win 90-89
Wade goes for 27 on 23 shots. Ginobili goes for 18 on 12 shots.
11-7-08 SAS 8 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281107024
Spurs lose 99-83
Wade goes for 33 on 25 shots. Manu is out due to off-season ankle surgery.
1-5-09 SAS 9 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290105014
Spurs win 91-84
Wade scores 24 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 10 on 14 shots.
12-31-09 SAS 10 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291231024
Spurs win 108-78
Wade scores 16 on 18 shots.
Ginobii scores 18 on 13 shots.
3-16- SAS 11 - MIA 3
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300316014
Spurs win 88-76
Wade scores 28 on 26 shots. Ginobili scores 22 on 14 shots.
People say that Miami will be so much better with their new pieces. They will be better. But it's cohesiveness that rules the roost. The Spurs don't have as many key pieces to integrate as Miami does. As it stands, Miami isn't close to finalizing a roster. San Antonio is just trying to figure out the end of the bench.
Oh and 1 other thing.
2 different indexes.
PER for career Since the end of last season:
Ginobili 21.65
Wade 25.67
Points Created for career:
Ginobili
13605-5457.5=8147.5 / 15380 minutes played = .530 Per Minute
/ 553 Games Played = 24.60 Per Game
Wade
18714-7842=10872 / 17717 minutes played = .614 Per Minutes
/ 471 Games Played = 23.08 Per Game
Damn lies and statistics. It is what it is. If Manu played in New York, he'd be a Demi-God. But since he's in San Antonio, he's just a solid, gritty player. Check out the stats. If it's a big game, Ginobili will have a say!
Nada is wrong with me. I always respected tim, and my little debate downstairs (yes i still think kobe is still greater) did remind me how great duncan was and maybe just maybe he has a little left.
The Spurs have two chances to beat the Lakers, slim and none!
Remember, I said Lakers win, but it would be TOUGHER than 2008, when we won 4-1. Do you think we SWEEP the Spurs this year? My guess we win in 6 ...but duncan has reach down in to the well to make that happen. That is why I asked if folks think he has at least ONE, just ONE playoff run left?
IDK about demi-god ...but like i said I dont think Wade is >>>>>>better than Manu. It's more like >> or even just >. But again he has to be healthy. Last few years he has not been at his best when the spurs have got bounced.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 09-08-2010 at 05:29 PM.
With Splitter and a seasoned Dejuan Blair, I think we're in good shape and I have no problem saying the Spurs are contenders.
That's just it. Why does NO ONE TALK ABOUT WADE'S INJURY ISSUES? I've pointed out that just against SAS in 14 games since he started in the A, he missed 3 games. Manu only missed 1. If Ginobili was a Knick or a Celtic, he'd be deemed a great player instead of just a good one. >> or > does not apply to Wade when his MIA teams haved faced Manu's. It more the other way around. Can you guys not see the ass kicking going on against MIA in that post?
Tougher than 08? You do remember Sasha, Walton, and Radmanovic were playing key roles then don't you? No Ariza either. Now its Artest, Bynum (hopefuly), Blake and Barnes.
Duncan may have one playoff run in him - but he could have used it all up in the 1st round last season.
Last first
LA has a better bench than SA. Odom, Barnes, Brown, and Blake tops the best off SA's bench easily.
Gasol sure didn't look soft against Boston or Howard? Not handling pressure is not the Pau of today.
And if healthy, Bynum has a huge advantage over Dice.
Are they contenders? Is a bird in the hand worth two in the bush?
Yeah, I think we sweep or five games max. I don't think he has one left. He used it last season and got sweep. Duncan had a great career but its over.
Comparing the Manu of old to the Wade of today won't help much in actual game. Also should consider the fact the Spurs WERE a great defensive team and they could focus on Wade, therefore forcing him to take tough shots. Now the Spurs are simply not as good defensively and who would the Spurs focus on Lebron or Wade? Manu has always had Parker and Duncan which could help make any player's life easier. Don't get me wrong Manu is great and when he's on, he is just as good as the top players in the league but he's just not consistent.
For you guys who say it's over. Question, if this was Kareem in 1985, would you say it was over then? Even if his game declined, KAJ was still a threat in the post on both sides of the court. And what happened after everyone else picked their game up, while KAJ's stats went down, the results speak Championship that season.
That's the same thing that could happen for San Antonio! Open your damn eyes.
Let's take an article about a team that was on the tail end of it's dynasty and subs ute some names and see how it looks.
I took those paragraphs from an article that talked about about the last le of the Showtime era. That team just had enough balance to get a le in a 7 game Final against the Pistons. Despite a declining legend in KAJ. Tim Duncan isn't as old as you guys wish him to be. Add the rest he'll get, the added help from stronger post help and he can be better than KAJ was in the last le for Showtime.Beginning with training camp and throughout the season, Coach Pop pushed them like a man obsessed. He was Captain Ahab, and a 5th championship was the elusive great whale. On occasion the crew came close to mutiny, but somehow Popovich knew when to lighten up just enough to keep them going.
Manu Ginobili was the Lamborghini in the Spurs' motorcade. At 6-foot-6, he was incredibly shifty and swift. No man his size in the league had an easy time of staying with him. Without a doubt, Tony Parker was the guard who drove the HoltCat machine, but Ginobili was the wing who made it go.
Other people stepped forward to do their parts as well. George Hill began to realize his potential at shooting guard. He led San Antonio in 3 Point scoring, averaging 13.7 points over the regular season while shooting .487 from the field. Also vital was the development of DeJuan Blair at power forward. He didn't shoot much, but his shot selection and accuracy were outstanding. He rebounded well and continued to learn the intricacies of low-post defense.
Tony Parker once again played brilliantly, although he missed 10 games at midseason due to a groin injury. If there was a problem for the Spurs, it was Tim Duncan's age. His decline was apparent throughout the season, but Tiago Splitter's presence off the bench provided just enough patchwork to keep the Spurs effective in the post.
Original Article here:
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19871988.html
When you get a Magic Johnson or another superstar then I will take back that its over for the spurs. Ginosbli and Parker wont get it done.
agreed and true.
Spurs are going to have a nice season and win 52-55 games IMO. I'm excited to watch the youth continuing to develop and see how the unknown commodities pan out. But the Spurs are not contenders, realistically. A long shot at best. The team is small and not physical enough; the Spurs are a finesse team. The defense has waned, the bench does not have clutch players except for Manu, and there are the new guys to figure out and incorporate.
The big three are not what they once were. Tim can not dominate consistently anymore and doesn't demand a double team anymore. Manu has to have the planets aligned to play well. Tony will be nice because he's playing for a contract.
RJ and Bonner will do just what most people expect and that is underachieve and choke, respectively. And don't forget the coach is senile and does nothing to the team's advantage. And the league has no love for the Spurs.
See, this is where you and I differ. You think it'll take another superstar. I disagree. I know it will take is stronger post help and better defensive effort on the wings. Since the Spurs can't work the Grizz for the other Gasol via collusion, I expect that bringing in the best big outside of the NBA, in Splitter to bring huge dividends. Health, and strong balanced play are the most key thing for this Spurs team.
Also... I just wanted to point out the following 2 stats:
Tim Duncan Points Created:
2008-2009 2678 Positives - 949.5 Negatives = 1728.5 PC TOTAL / 2523 Minutes Played = .685 or / 75 Games Played = 23.05
2009-2010 2591 Positives - 840 Negatives = 1751 PC TOTAL / 2438 Minutes Played = .718 or / 78 Games Played = 22.45
So comparing Tim's last 2 seasons, this past season, a season many of you haters say his production tailed off, well - Stats tell us that he actually played better per minute he was on court and stayed almost as effective on a per game basis.
Pau Gasol Points Created:
2008-2009 2725 Positives - 792 Negatives = 1933 PC TOTAL / 2999 Minutes Played = .645 or / 81 Games Played = 23.86
2009-2010 2292 Positives - 687 Negatives = 1605 PC TOTAL / 2403 Minutes Played = .668 or / 65 Games Played = 24.69
Compared to Pau Gasol, Tim isn't that far off from him. Playing better per minute overall and again almost as effective on a per game basis.
It's not an everything stat, just like PER, there isn't a way to quantify position defense or shots affected by length, both of these guys are good at that. However, it's a level playing field and the stats ac ulated are what they are.
So when people say that Tim has nothing left in the tank, I counter with, if that's the case...then why are his scores so similar to Gasol?
Last edited by Man In Black; 09-08-2010 at 06:09 PM.
But the thing is, we saw virtually the same team get swept in the 2nd round, so we have a reasonable basis for comparison. Also, the point was that we are operating on assumptions (some with more logic than others due to some concrete evidence) and that you can't use opinions as fact (WE WILL BE SOOOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN LAST YEAR!!!!!!!!!), especially when right now there is really nothing to back that up.
I did not misinterpret anything. You stated, as a rebuttal to an argument, that the Spurs would be significantly better. I asked you why you thought that assuming the Spurs made no major upgrades (like bringing in a Pau level player).Come on, man . . . I never said Splitter was on Pau's level. You are using gross misinterpretation to make your point. What I DID say is that having another legit big will HELP defend teams who have strong frontlines and take a lot of pressure off Duncan. I'm not saying Splitter is the "golden god" 2nd coming of D-Rob, but he will be a big help. Add Splitter to a team that will have a healthy TP and Manu to START the season, Blair and RJ in their 2nd year, an ever-improving Hill in his third and a couple of high potential young guys . . . and I see an improved team. I don't know what's going to happen . . . nobody does.
The big 3 did their job (TP was injured, what do you expect?).The Spurs struggled mightily last season. I'm not denying that. They squeeked into the playoffs, over-extended themselves against Dallas and ran into a revenge-fueled buzzsaw in Phoenix. Blaming Bonner and Jefferson for that debacle is like spitting on a fire to out it out. Duncan, Ginobili and Parker (and Popovich) deserve most of the blame. Their job is to step up in those situations and take the pressure off the supporting cast. When the big three are rolling in the playoffs, the role players/bench perform better. The entire team lost that series.
You are using gross misinterpretation to make your point. I did not blame everything on Bonner and RJ. I said they played a large role in the team getting swept and they got extended. Is any of that wrong?
It was obvious that I was saying I am using opinion. That was the point. My point was you are arguing like your opinion is fact. You say things that are statements of fact (the team IS much better than last year, Things WILL fall in line for RJ...) and I dispute that using something concrete (last season).I think you just answered your own question there, dude . . . I'm not trying to pass off anything as simple fact. I just don't see the RJ situation as dire and hopelessly unfortunate as you seem to. I don't think he is a bad fit and even if he was, it is Pop's job to correct that. Other coaches do it ALL THE TIME . . . I saw Pop and Tim give up on this team a lot last season because things weren't going well and it wasn't "easy". They got a little too comfortable the past few years and they had to re-learn that becoming a championship team is hard work. In my opinion, they will have a better roster this season and more help. Again, I'm not saying they are going to win a championship, but they belong in the conversation.
You saw Pop and Tim give up? lol wut? Pop can't make RJ laterally quick and good at 3 point shooting. He can't change the whole system to suit a 5th option. That would be bad coaching. Where do you draw the line of teams being "in the conversation"? Do the Spurs have a legit shot as things stand today using logic? No. So how are they in the convo? They are still a very good team, but there is a huge difference in teams that need a ton of factors to go their way vs teams that just have to play their game.
Again, I was saying you dismiss people's arguments because they are opinion, while using only opinion yourself. I know we all use opinion, but some opinions are based on logic and facts. Some are not. Just because we all use opinion, does not mean all opinion is weighted the same.Huh? Mind if I do a J?
Absolutely yes! This years team is the most talented and deepest team that I have seen in 7 years. With Duncan, Dice, Splitter and Blair the front court is one of the best frontcourts in the NBA. A three guard combo of Manu, Parkern and Hill is unmatched by any other team in the league. Plus, you throw in Jefferson, Neal and Blair and you have a solid 10 player rotation. Our bench was the leading scoring bench last year and will probably lead the league again.
Best frontcourt + best backcourt + best bench = Contenders
Manu and Tim had a win last year in LA at the end of the season which basically convinced me that there's still something left in the tank. that's not even counting the fact that they split last year. '08 was close despite the fact that Manu averaged 2 ppg due to inuries.
LA doesn't scare me. scared is in '01 and '02 when i knew we'd get our asses handed to us. they've got no one to guard Manu. Artest cant handle him. no one to guard Parker either (LOL Blake). if Duncan can stay healthy and rested come playoffs, he can at least go toe-to-toe w/ Gasol. that's potentially three matchups that can go in favor of the Spurs in the starting lineup alone (Parker > Blake/Fisher; Manu>Artest; and Duncan>Gasol) is there any other team in the league that can say that they have that? nope. We'll also have the likes of McDyess, Blair (who's only 20 and will surely show improvement from last year), Hill (who will also improve), Anderson, RJ, Neal, and Splitter as role players, which help fill spacing and height issues we had from last year and essentially did us in; and that's a roster that is potentially 10 players deep.
the HUGE misconception is that the Spurs are too old. they are if you want to believe everything the media has to say. the truth is it was more of not having certain things last year aside from the big three that did the Spurs in, namely height and 3-point shooting.
it's a joke that people don't have the Spurs as #2 in the West.
OKC? LOL (Spurs played them very well last year)
Portland? haven't been able to materialze into anything serious
Phoenix? w/ Amare they're nothing
Dallas? Spurs beat them pretty good last year
Denver? see how they lost by 30 at home to the Spurs. next
Houston? THE only legitimate threat in the west besides LA to the Spurs.
that leaves the Spurs in 2nd to LA in the West. look at last years record and the year before against LA and you see a pretty even matchup. the Spurs have actually matched up (even better now) with LA.
then count the fact that there's plenty of 'chip experience on the team and the Spurs are a threat to LA, without a doubt. nobody on here has given a valid explenation as to why they're not. it's ridiculous. at least put forth a decent argument and show that you've got a few working neurons.
Do I really have to say "in my opinion" or "IMHO" everytime? It should be fairly obvious that I am giving my opinion. There is no more reason to believe that the Phoenix series will have a positive or negative bearing on how the Spurs will perform this season. That is my opinion.
It is my opinion that the Spurs will be better. I am backing up that opinion with the following: Tiago Splitter, while not a "Pau level player", IS a legit big that the Spurs did not have last season. I feel that, even at the lowest of expectations that he will provide a significant presence to the frontline and take a good amount of pressure off of Duncan. Also, that Duncan, Ginobili and Parker will be in good health to start the season should be a huge factor. If the Spurs can get off to a good start, the rest of the season should not be the uphill struggle it was last season. Parker is also in a contract year and I expect a resemblance to his All-Star form. I also expect Blair, Hill and Jefferson to improve. There is no reason to think that they will not. I expect Bonner to play less and be used, mostly, in situational/match-up manner. I expect less small ball.
Most importantly, there are no "wily veterans" like Bogans/Finley/Mason on the squad for Pop to fall back on when things get rough. He will be forced to go to Anderson/Gee/Neal who can only get better with real PT. I mean, that was the bone of contention with Pop's at ude toward Hairston and Mahinmi last year, right?
How so? Yes. TP was injured . . . so was Manu . . . remember the huge bandage swathed across his face? Duncan just ran out of gas and he took big shots to his bum knee in the Mavs and Suns series. What's your point? In that situation I didn't expect them to win. I was disappointed, sure, but I didn't really expect a different result. The point is, if the big three are not performing close to 100%, you can't expect the role players and the bench to carry a series. No team in the league is going to win a playoff series in that kind of scenario. The Spurs just got their ass whipped, plain and simple . . . it happens, pick yourselves up and move on. Use it as motivation. That's what professionals do. Why should that have any negative effect on this season?The big 3 did their job (TP was injured, what do you expect?).
You are using gross misinterpretation to make your point. I did not blame everything on Bonner and RJ. I said they played a large role in the team getting swept and they got extended. Is any of that wrong?
It is no more obvious for you than it is for me. It is your perception that I am stating things that I feel are obviously opinions as fact. The problem is yours, not mine. We are not going to agree on RJ. We've been over this countless times. You believe the situation is hopeless and I do not. I also do not agree that last season is any indication, or gives concrete insight on how this season will pan out. How many times have you seen a team fail in the playoffs only to see an better result the next without adding an all-star level (although you could argue for Parker) player?
Pop gave up by choosing Bogans/Bonner/Mason when they weren't working, rather than take a chance on Hairston/Mahinmi/Temple. Duncan didn't physically give up, but I have never seen him so psychologically defeated and exasperated as he was last season. I don't believe the system has to change significantly to incorporate RJ. I think most of his issues were mental and are easily fixed with his understanding of the system and confidence being raised. Call me crazy, but I believe the Spurs are one of 5 teams that has a legit shot to win a championship. Are the odds stacked against them? Sure, they are.
Again, just my opinion.
Again, your perception. That just didn't happen. I can have a difference of opinion with someone without you interpreting that as me stating facts. At least, I should be able to . . . I have defended my opinion with the same level of logic as anyone else and just because it doesn't jive with your's does not make it less valuable. Believe me, I view some of the things you say as ridiculous as you probably view mine . . . That's just how it goes sometimes, dude.
In my opinion.
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