Pau Gasol or Dirk Nowitzki?

[Killakobe81]

TD 21,

Tim Duncan has started showing his age much more than Dirk. Duncan is only 2 years older, but it appears to be enough to show his decline. His game against the Hornets demonstrated that. We're talking about players right now. Duncan isn't what he was just 2-3 years ago. Dirk still is putting in his prime numbers up and playing 36+ MPG. Dirk may be at the tail end of his prime, but he's still in his prime. I think Duncan is still a very good player in this league but he's no longer in his prime. That's why I place Dirk over Duncan.

And your criticism of Dirk's defense is exaggerated. He's not nearly as bad as you suggest. He's actually become an adequate defender. He'll never be a great defender but he'll do a good enough job on most nights. The difference between him and Amare is effort. Dirk actually gives effort defensively. Amare seems indiffierent. Bosh isn't very good defensively either but I don't think he's as bad as some make him out to be either. But a lot of it is effort as well. He played pretty good defense on the 2008 Olympic team when they asked it from him. I think the Raptors just didn't demand him to be a great defender so he wasn't. And this has been said a lot, but for most of his career, Dirk has been a very good defensive rebounder. That alone shows his effort level defensively. He doesn't have the quickness or athleticism of Amare or Bosh but he still manages to be as good defensively and as good or better rebounding the defensive glass.

Like some, you want to argue Dirk is a one dimensional player who just scores. I disagree with that. He's not. And he's still an elite player in the league. And because of Duncan's decline, I have no problem putting Dirk ahead of Duncan. And it appears most Spurs fans think the same way. You're in the minority, even among Spurs fans.

So, much win in this post. Right now dirk is better than duncan. All-time we know it goes the other way ...
Amare is a ty defender. Dirk i would say is mediocre, Bosh adequate. Bosh played pretty good D for Team USA as Jam pointed out, and so far for the Heat.

[TD 21]

TD 21,

Tim Duncan has started showing his age much more than Dirk. Duncan is only 2 years older, but it appears to be enough to show his decline. His game against the Hornets demonstrated that. We're talking about players right now. Duncan isn't what he was just 2-3 years ago. Dirk still is putting in his prime numbers up and playing 36+ MPG. Dirk may be at the tail end of his prime, but he's still in his prime. I think Duncan is still a very good player in this league but he's no longer in his prime. That's why I place Dirk over Duncan.

And your criticism of Dirk's defense is exaggerated. He's not nearly as bad as you suggest. He's actually become an adequate defender. He'll never be a great defender but he'll do a good enough job on most nights. The difference between him and Amare is effort. Dirk actually gives effort defensively. Amare seems indiffierent. Bosh isn't very good defensively either but I don't think he's as bad as some make him out to be either. But a lot of it is effort as well. He played pretty good defense on the 2008 Olympic team when they asked it from him. I think the Raptors just didn't demand him to be a great defender so he wasn't. And this has been said a lot, but for most of his career, Dirk has been a very good defensive rebounder. That alone shows his effort level defensively. He doesn't have the quickness or athleticism of Amare or Bosh but he still manages to be as good defensively and as good or better rebounding the defensive glass.

Like some, you want to argue Dirk is a one dimensional player who just scores. I disagree with that. He's not. And he's still an elite player in the league. And because of Duncan's decline, I have no problem putting Dirk ahead of Duncan. And it appears most Spurs fans think the same way. You're in the minority, even among Spurs fans.

Fair enough. I completely disagree, but at least you took the time to explain your thought process.

No question, Duncan has declined more than Nowitzki and is no longer in his prime (I've never argued to the contrary), but because he was so much better than Nowitzki to begin with, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a lesser player than him now. As I said (and you didn't answer), other than range shooting, tell me what Nowitzki is better than Duncan at?

Nowitzki is still a poor man defender. He's improved as a team defender over the years, as is often the case, but overall he still makes no discernible impact defensively. Contrary to popular belief, Duncan still does. He's still one of the best anchors in the league, only the personnel around him and the lineups he's often played in just don't always make that seem as such.

Effort or not, Nowitzki is not a significantly better defender than Stoudemire (I didn't say not at all, I said significantly, so remember that before you say "You think Stoudemire is an equal or better defender than Nowitzki?"). In most other aspects, they're relatively equal, yet one is constantly criticized and the other isn't. I'm not saying Stoudemire or Bosh shouldn't be criticized, I'm saying all three should be.

You do realize that Nowitzki is 7-0, right? Unlike Stoudemire, who can't be more than 6-9 and Bosh, who's 6-10 (I'm not going by their phony listings). He ought to be able to be at least a decent rebounder on one end. The Bargnani's of the world are rare, a guy that big who's that bad on the glass.

No, I want to argue that he's not great at anything but scoring and even that, he's not elite of the elite at. I'm aware I'm in the minority amongst Spurs fans. Doesn't make me wrong...unlike many, I don't base my opinions off of who's getting hype at a particular time or what the general consensus is.

[Nahtanoj]

Any GM would go with Dirk 9 out of 10 times if you're talking about building a franchise. Gasol proved that he was not a No. 1 at Memphis.

But if you ask Phil who he'd want in the triangle, he'd go with Gasol easily... I mean the guy is a legitimate threat in the post (back to the basket, face up) all the way out to 18 feet as a 7 footer with two terrific hands and pretty good vision too. Don't compare numbers, compare their skill set, basketball IQ and impact on both ends in a particular system.

[Nahtanoj]

You do realize that Nowitzki is 7-0, right? Unlike Stoudemire, who can't be more than 6-9 and Bosh, who's 6-10 (I'm not going by their phony listings). He ought to be able to be at least a decent rebounder on one end. The Bargnani's of the world are rare, a guy that big who's that bad on the glass.

Rebounding ain't about height in the NBA. It's more about leverage, agility, quickness of your jump, positioning and heart/hustle.

[La Mont]

I don't agree that Pau is better than Dirk, mainly cuz Dirk's made a career of ass raping Pau when they go head to head.

But I am coming around on the notion that Pau is a better player for the Lakers. I used to think it was ridiculous to say Dirk couldn't make the Lakers a better team than Pau, but now I believe it.

Trade Dirk for Pau last season, and both teams are worse. The Mavericks don't make the playoffs with Pau, and the Lakers definitely lose to Boston with Dirk, in fact they might have gotten beat by OKC or Phoenix.

bynum is chronically injury-plagued, hence they need a reliable big player who plays consistent games in the paint. dirk may be more skillful but the lack of toughness never allows him to play PF as fine as most other PFs do. Pau however is a tough player who builds his game near the basket and never shirks body collisions.

[Nahtanoj]

Pau however is a tough player who builds his game near the basket and never shirks body collisions.

Two years ago you would look like a fool saying that..

[Giuseppe]

...then Bryant told him where the bear in the buckwheat, and we ain't looked back. Well, cept for that one time when Kobe aired it out. But, then Artest made JRich his and we ain't looked back since then. Well, cept for that time before Bynum made Perkins his and we ain't looked back since then.

[LakeShow]

Fair enough. I completely disagree, but at least you took the time to explain your thought process.

No question, Duncan has declined more than Nowitzki and is no longer in his prime (I've never argued to the contrary), but because he was so much better than Nowitzki to begin with, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a lesser player than him now. As I said (and you didn't answer), other than range shooting, tell me what Nowitzki is better than Duncan at?

Nowitzki is still a poor man defender. He's improved as a team defender over the years, as is often the case, but overall he still makes no discernible impact defensively. Contrary to popular belief, Duncan still does. He's still one of the best anchors in the league, only the personnel around him and the lineups he's often played in just don't always make that seem as such.

Effort or not, Nowitzki is not a significantly better defender than Stoudemire (I didn't say not at all, I said significantly, so remember that before you say "You think Stoudemire is an equal or better defender than Nowitzki?"). In most other aspects, they're relatively equal, yet one is constantly criticized and the other isn't. I'm not saying Stoudemire or Bosh shouldn't be criticized, I'm saying all three should be.

You do realize that Nowitzki is 7-0, right? Unlike Stoudemire, who can't be more than 6-9 and Bosh, who's 6-10 (I'm not going by their phony listings). He ought to be able to be at least a decent rebounder on one end. The Bargnani's of the world are rare, a guy that big who's that bad on the glass.

No, I want to argue that he's not great at anything but scoring and even that, he's not elite of the elite at. I'm aware I'm in the minority amongst Spurs fans. Doesn't make me wrong...unlike many, I don't base my opinions off of who's getting hype at a particular time or what the general consensus is.

This.

Dirk is nothing more than a 7ft shooting guard. His defense has always been soft and weak. His game is great for the regular season but a weakness in the playoffs. In the history of the championships, I have never seen a team win a le with a PF that plays on the perimeter. When you have your power forward on the perimeter being defended by Sf's and SG's the opponent has an advantage in the paint. I have said since 2000, that the Mavs will NEVER win a le with Dirk at the 4. Guess what? They haven't.

Everyone wants to blame the officials for the mavs loss against the heat. Although it was bad at times the real turning point in that series came in game 3 when Shaq fouled Dirk hard when he drove the lane. Dirk punked out and never attacked the rim again. He was a jump shooter for the rest of the series.

I would take Gasol's game over Dirks game when it matters. Give me Pau

[La Mont]

I'm tired of this argument... we're comparing a C to a PF... I'll take DIrk still

People that pick Pau are subconsciously influenced by Pau's greater team success over the last 3 years. It's undeniable.

as for swap Pau w/ Dirk hypotheticals.. pointless, it's hard to speculate. I'd say Lakers w/ Dirk would require more production out of Bynum... and since Bynum is a bum, would probably be a little worse.

dirk is not even a PF. he shoots the ball more often like guards do, and he does little to protect the basket. dirk was actually their play-maker during their best years, but he seceded that role as Kidd joined.

they shuffled their semi-champion squad only to see their squad getting worse. just because they choked in the first round the prior year it didn't mean their squad had some weakness desperately needing to be fixed. the Mavs never exceeded the 2nd round since they got kidd, and you can hardly call any of the 3 series lost a choking job.

[Giuseppe]

This.

Dirk is nothing more than a 7ft shooting guard.

The Show/Lake style hittin' that nail square on it's head.

[La Mont]

This.

Dirk is nothing more than a 7ft shooting guard. His defense has always been soft and weak. His game is great for the regular season but a weakness in the playoffs. In the history of the championships, I have never seen a team win a le with a PF that plays on the perimeter. When you have your power forward on the perimeter being defended by Sf's and SG's the opponent has an advantage in the paint. I have said since 2000, that the Mavs will NEVER win a le with Dirk at the 4. Guess what? They haven't.

Everyone wants to blame the officials for the mavs loss against the heat. Although it was bad at times the real turning point in that series came in game 3 when Shaq fouled Dirk hard when he drove the lane. Dirk punked out and never attacked the rim again. He was a jump shooter for the rest of the series.

I would take Gasol's game over Dirks game when it matters. Give me Pau

Larry bird played SF most time on the celtics champion team. playing in the playoffs against the mavs, you only need a couple of tough beasts in the paint to beat the mavs. all the squad adjustments they made these years were all aimed against the spurs, and their goal was well achieved since they always cause serious match-up problems playing against spurs, whereas they have no avail at all against any other playoff team.

[21_Blessings]

Dallas fan coming out of seclusion to defend her Highness' honor

[BRHornet45]

Gasol without question

[mavsfan1000]

This.

Dirk is nothing more than a 7ft shooting guard. His defense has always been soft and weak. His game is great for the regular season but a weakness in the playoffs. In the history of the championships, I have never seen a team win a le with a PF that plays on the perimeter. When you have your power forward on the perimeter being defended by Sf's and SG's the opponent has an advantage in the paint. I have said since 2000, that the Mavs will NEVER win a le with Dirk at the 4. Guess what? They haven't.

Everyone wants to blame the officials for the mavs loss against the heat. Although it was bad at times the real turning point in that series came in game 3 when Shaq fouled Dirk hard when he drove the lane. Dirk punked out and never attacked the rim again. He was a jump shooter for the rest of the series.

I would take Gasol's game over Dirks game when it matters. Give me Pau

There are very few that play like Dirk. So talking about history is not a good explanation since there isn't enough data to prove that PF's can't play on the perimeter in the playoffs. And most of Dirk's shots are in midrange and very high percentage shots. Dirk opens up the paint if he had some slashers to help him out. He made Harris look really good for example. There are some good role player bigs that shoot from the perimeter though on championship teams. Mehmet Okur, Bill Laimbeer, and Robert Horry to name a few.

[HornetLoveJones]

Gasol pre Kobe
0-12 in the playoffs

with Kobe... 2 championships

[MavFan6488]

Dallas fan coming out of seclusion to defend her Highness' honor

laker fan showing support for an empty-headed fool like matt barnes just because he's on his team now

[dirk4mvp]

This.

Dirk is nothing more than a 7ft shooting guard. His defense has always been soft and weak. His game is great for the regular season but a weakness in the playoffs. In the history of the championships, I have never seen a team win a le with a PF that plays on the perimeter. When you have your power forward on the perimeter being defended by Sf's and SG's the opponent has an advantage in the paint. I have said since 2000, that the Mavs will NEVER win a le with Dirk at the 4. Guess what? They haven't.

Everyone wants to blame the officials for the mavs loss against the heat. Although it was bad at times the real turning point in that series came in game 3 when Shaq fouled Dirk hard when he drove the lane. Dirk punked out and never attacked the rim again. He was a jump shooter for the rest of the series.

I would take Gasol's game over Dirks game when it matters. Give me Pau

lol rocketfan pretending to be a lakerfan to post ring smack

awesome troll

[midnightpulp]

Do any of the idiot Dirk detractors realize that Dirk is off to the best start of his career?

Gasol is a great, great player, the best player on the Lakers, but his supporting cast consists of a top 5 SG in Kobe, a lock down SF in Ron Artest, the most versatile SF/PF in the league in Odom, and when Bynum comes back, a top 5 center, along with a relatively deep bench.

Dirk has Caron Butler and an aging Jason Kidd, who in my mind, never really fit the Mavs.

[Venti Quattro]

> Dirk-tractors

Anyway, if I wanted to start a franchise, I'd go with Dirk. If I wanted someone who would seamlessly fit into my team as a second option, I'd choose Pau.

[midnightpulp]

> Dirk-tractors

Anyway, if I wanted to start a franchise, I'd go with Dirk. If I wanted someone who would seamlessly fit into my team as a second option, I'd choose Pau.

The only scenario where I would pick Pau over Dirk to start a franchise is if my offensive system is the triangle. Pau is perfect fit for that system.

[LakeShow]

There are very few that play like Dirk. So talking about history is not a good explanation since there isn't enough data to prove that PF's can't play on the perimeter in the playoffs. And most of Dirk's shots are in midrange and very high percentage shots. Dirk opens up the paint if he had some slashers to help him out. He made Harris look really good for example. There are some good role player bigs that shoot from the perimeter though on championship teams. Mehmet Okur, Bill Laimbeer, and Robert Horry to name a few.

Okur was a reserve for the Pistons championship. Starters were the Wallace's. Bill Laimbeer and Horry did the intangibles well, defense, blocks, steals, Heart. Both players had very good low post players. Horry, playing with three of the best low post players in the game in Shaq, Olajuwon and Duncan. It was no room for him in the paint. If you pair Dirk with a very good low post player he will have a chance at a le but as it stands now and has stood for the last 10 years or so, the mavs offense goes threw Dirk who plays exclusively on the perimeter.

[LakeShow]

lol rocketfan pretending to be a lakerfan to post ring smack

awesome troll

lol micropenis

[dirk4mvp]

that's one of the saddest things I've ever seen on the internet. and that's including calf tats.

[Killakobe81]

Do any of the idiot Dirk detractors realize that Dirk is off to the best start of his career?

Gasol is a great, great player, the best player on the Lakers, but his supporting cast consists of a top 5 SG in Kobe, a lock down SF in Ron Artest, the most versatile SF/PF in the league in Odom, and when Bynum comes back, a top 5 center, along with a relatively deep bench.

Dirk has Caron Butler and an aging Jason Kidd, who in my mind, never really fit the Mavs.

nice, try

[Jelloisjigglin]

nice, try

Mid gettin' his troll work on.