Kobe and Duncan's respective rankings on the all-time playoff leaderboards.

[024]

Midnight, getting his obsession on as usual.

Dude, I know it's close buddy, too close to call. 5 rings versus 4....

Still, in Duncan's and Kobe's tenure so far, Kobe's teams have been to the finals 7 times, hence winning the Western Confererance 7 times. Duncan won 4 times.....end of thread.

Kobe's actually a more talented and better individual player than TD. , you ask any pundit, expert, GM and coach an they'll tell you the same damn thing.

ask any gm and coach, if they had to pick between a 21 year old tim duncan or kobe to start a franchise, 29/30 franchises will pick tim duncan, with probably the grizzlies rolling the die on kobe. LOL trading love for mayo. that still cracks me up in addition to the gasol trade.

[midnightpulp]

Midnight, getting his obsession on as usual.

Dude, I know it's close buddy, too close to call. 5 rings versus 4....

Still, in Duncan's and Kobe's tenure so far, Kobe's teams have been to the finals 7 times, hence winning the Western Confererance 7 times. Duncan won 4 times.....end of thread.

Kobe's actually a more talented and better individual player than TD. , you ask any pundit, expert, GM and coach an they'll tell you the same damn thing.

Keep acting like Shaq wasn't the greater half of that equation for the first 4 trips to the Finals.

Quote your hero: "I'm tired of being a sidekick." But since Kobe fan says he was the leader, he must be. Never mind the fact Kobe himself knew he wasn't the leader of those teams.

Kobe as "the man": 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs.
Duncan as "the man": 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs.

And Kobe's the better individual player if the game is 1 on 1, but last I checked, the NBA is 5 on 5 basketball. The "skills" argument, which is what you're alluding to, is weak. Kevin Garnett has more "skills" than Shaq, but he is not the better team basketball player.

And as for the last point, when Duncan was winning his les, all these pundits, experts, and GMs were declaring him the best player in the league, the best PF of all time, etc, etc. Kobe's en vogue at the moment because he's winning les, and if any GM would rather build around an inefficient SG than a low-post big, I would have to question his basketball expertise.


BTW, find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...Performances-1

[Killakobe81]

ask any gm and coach, if they had to pick between a 21 year old tim duncan or kobe to start a franchise, 29/30 franchises will pick tim duncan, with probably the grizzlies rolling the die on kobe. LOL trading love for mayo. that still cracks me up in addition to the gasol trade.

You maybe right but that changes nothing. Every Gm would of taken hakeem over MJ too ... (and would of been right) but now that both careers are over everyone would take MJ even rox fans ...Same here all those GM's take kobe. more rings, more endorsement dollars and more worldwide appeal ...even with the rape allegations ...

[midnightpulp]

You maybe right but that changes nothing. Every Gm would of taken hakeem over MJ too ... (and would of been right) but now that both careers are over everyone would take MJ even rox fans ...Same here all those GM's take kobe. more rings, more endorsement dollars and more worldwide appeal ...even with the rape allegations ...

Not me. I take Hakeem over MJ, even with hindsight bias. You have a better chance of building a championship contender around Hakeem than you do with MJ. Jordan found the perfect storm of complementary talents on those Bulls teams, but I have my doubts that you replicate that success elsewhere. With Hakeem, all you need are some shooters, a couple of decent slashers, and a committed defensive ideology, and you're an instant contender.

Also, one thing Jordan never did was beat a prime Showtime Lakers. Hakeem did it. And maybe if Ralph Sampson had a pair of good knees, Hakeem has a couple more les.

[024]

You maybe right but that changes nothing. Every Gm would of taken hakeem over MJ too ... (and would of been right) but now that both careers are over everyone would take MJ even rox fans ...Same here all those GM's take kobe. more rings, more endorsement dollars and more worldwide appeal ...even with the rape allegations ...

that's why i said to start a franchise, as in this will be the team's franchise player for the next 10 years. 29/30 franchises will choose tim duncan, knowing what they know now, which includes duncan's repeat mvp performances, offensive efficiency, willingness to pass, willingness to accomodate, defensive nature, clutchness in playoffs, lack of drama, perpetual dominance of other players, and all around superiority.

[Medvedenko]

Keep acting like Shaq wasn't the greater half of that equation for the first 4 trips to the Finals.

Quote your hero: "I'm tired of being a sidekick." But since Kobe fan says he was the leader, he must be. Never mind the fact Kobe himself knew he wasn't the leader of those teams.

Kobe as "the man": 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs.
Duncan as "the man": 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs.

And Kobe's the better individual player if the game is 1 on 1, but last I checked, the NBA is 5 on 5 basketball. The "skills" argument, which is what you're alluding to, is weak. Kevin Garnett has more "skills" than Shaq, but he is not the better team basketball player.

And as for the last point, when Duncan was winning his les, all these pundits, experts, and GMs were declaring him the best player in the league, the best PF of all time, etc, etc. Kobe's en vogue at the moment because he's winning les, and if any GM would rather build around an inefficient SG than a low-post big, I would have to question his basketball expertise.


BTW, find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...Performances-1

Hey hollinger jr with your crazy analysis and stats....I know it was Shaq the main reason the Lakers got past your spurs....sureeeeee. This whole thread is TD vs Kobe....

Remember partner, all of the talk vs who's the best MJ or Kobe year after year has nothing to do with your boy. He's not in the discussion and never will be. It's too late for TD, no worries. He's had a solid career and is a great role player now.

[Killakobe81]

that's why i said to start a franchise, as in this will be the team's franchise player for the next 10 years. 29/30 franchises will choose tim duncan, knowing what they know now, which includes duncan's repeat mvp performances, offensive efficiency, willingness to pass, willingness to accomodate, defensive nature, clutchness in playoffs, lack of drama, perpetual dominance of other players, and all around superiority.

I would normally take the big over the smaller player but you dont Pas on Mj or Kobe.

BTW Blazers did it again with Oden over Durant dumb move.

[midnightpulp]

...I know it was Shaq the main reason the Lakers got past your spurs.....

Thanks for finally admitting it. Didn't think your Kobe fanboy ass had it in you.

[midnightpulp]

I would normally take the big over the smaller player but you dont Pas on Mj or Kobe.

BTW Blazers did it again with Oden over Durant dumb move.

I take Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem over Kobe all day and every day.

[Medvedenko]

Thanks for finally admitting it. Didn't think your Kobe fanboy ass had it in you.

Wow, quote manipulation smack. I knew you had it in you.

[Medvedenko]

I take Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem over Kobe all day and every day.

Hopefully not in the clutch....

[ezau]

So who makes more money?

Manny Pacquiao>>>>Kobe

[ezau]

Kobe also blew a 3-1 lead to Nash's Suns, who were missing Amare.

One of the best series I've seen. Nash proving he was the MVP that year over the player Lakers fans thought deserved it.

And no bull excuses about "supporting cast." Kobe went 7-21 in Game 1, a game the Lakers lost by 5. Smush Parker went 6-13

Who the gets outplayed by Smush Parker in a key playoff game?

Midnightpulp

[midnightpulp]

Wow, quote manipulation smack. I knew you had it in you.

Just quoting the facts. Everything else was typical Medvedenko Kobe's in your mouth bull , so it wasn't worth quoting.

Oh, and find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...Performances-1

[ezau]

Medvenko is legendary here. He's the only poster who genuinely believes that Kobe>>Jordan. LMAO

[midnightpulp]

Hopefully not in the clutch....

There too. Maybe not Shaq and Wilt. But those other players surely shoot better than 25% on game winners, like Kobe.

"...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups

Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem? He does have a better record in the playoffs though, which we'll get to down below."

The clutchiest, clutchest, clutch player to ever shoot a clutch shot in the clutch.

Jesus in' Christ. Is there anything that Kobe isn't overrated at?

[Medvedenko]

Just quoting the facts. Everything else was typical Medvedenko Kobe's in your mouth bull , so it wasn't worth quoting.

Oh, and find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...Performances-1

That's a superb list, oh how many times did TD go back to back after a dominating finals performance. Serioulsy bro, you parroting Hollinger is comical enough.

[Gutter92]

Has Duncan ever guaranteed a finals victory then gone on to chuck his team out of it?

Kobe has.

[TinTin]

That's a superb list, oh how many times did TD go back to back after a dominating finals performance. Serioulsy bro, you parroting Hollinger is comical enough.

So which one would you take?

A back to back with no dominating finals performance

or

Dominating performances on intervals

[Medvedenko]

There too. Maybe not Shaq and Wilt. But those other players surely shoot better than 25% on game winners, like Kobe.

"...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups

Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem? He does have a better record in the playoffs though, which we'll get to down below."

The clutchiest, clutchest, clutch player to ever shoot a clutch shot in the clutch.

Jesus in' Christ. Is there anything that Kobe isn't overrated at?

Hollinger, look the math is nice. Once again, I'm sure you can google the GM's and coaches choices for their most clutch player....Kobe. We can argue all night and getting trolled in your own thread is pretty funny. Unfortunately TD's relevance is waining and had been for a while. A really good role player now.

[midnightpulp]

That's a superb list, oh how many times did TD go back to back after a dominating finals performance. Serioulsy bro, you parroting Hollinger is comical enough.

back-to-back championships are team accomplishments. We're talking about individuals here. Try to keep up.

Why isn't Kobe on that list? I thought he was like the best ever and all that. Surely the best ever can appear on a list that ranks the 50 best Finals performances.

To be fair, that list was made in 2008. His Orlando series probably sneaks in (no way in does this last performance that concluded with a 6-24 chokejob make it). So that's 1 placement out of 7. Not bad

Duncan's on there 4 times, FWIW.

[024]

I would normally take the big over the smaller player but you dont Pas on Mj or Kobe.

BTW Blazers did it again with Oden over Durant dumb move.

lol, blazers and mj argument is irrelevant as this is knowing what we all know now. if a 21 year old kobe and duncan were available tomorrow, you really think a franchise, even the lakers, will choose kobe over duncan? knowing the past history of the two, you really believe a franchise would rather have kobe over duncan for 10 years? that team would have to constantly look for an all star big that they can either steal or sign through the FA, deal with kobe's refusal to pass, address kobe's overshooting in the playoffs, all while sweating that kobe might bad mouth another teammate or demand publicly for a trade. or they can pick tim duncan, add a few talented role players (no all star necessary like in 2003) and let him lead the franchise to championships. kobe may have helped shaq revive a struggling championship franchise but tim duncan, like jordan, built his own and instilled his own values into it.

[Medvedenko]

So which one would you take?

A back to back with no dominating finals performance

or

Dominating performances on intervals

Hmmm, I guess winning once in a while is ok.

[Medvedenko]

back-to-back championships are team accomplishments. We're talking about individuals here. Try to keep up.

Why isn't Kobe on that list? I thought he was like the best ever and all that. Surely the best ever can appear on a list that ranks the 50 best Finals performances.

To be fair, that list was made in 2008. His Orlando series probably sneaks in (no way in does this last performance that concluded with a 6-24 chokejob make it). So that's 1 placement out of 7. Not bad

Duncan's on there 4 times, FWIW.

What about the other 3 times that Kobe's eclipsed and actually made it to the finals over TD. Get on google and get those dominating stats from TD. How about getting swept last year, while Kobe's team won it.

[TinTin]

Hmmm, I guess winning once in a while is ok.

You define 4 times while being the man of your team as "once in a while" ?

In those terms kobe hasn't won before 2009