The above post is brilliant and spot on - Kobe is part of the issue and it would take balls (and I believe he has a no trade clause) but would it not be funny as if the Lakers swapped Kobe for Paul?
IMO Lakers become just as dangerous with Paul or Williams as Kobe as the assists from a top tier PG to their talented bigs would be sick! Moreover, we would get to see if Kobe could really lift a team to a le without a top 5-10 player on his side that year.
Seriously, though trading Bynum away would be stupid as he is their only starter under 30, still has immense potential, unless the medical staff has more worries about him then they let on.
My guess is that the Lakers are going to try to somehow get Nash - one other PG that would be a bargain but dangerous in the LAL system and even easier to get probably would be Devin Harris - he used to give the Spurs fits and is still in his prime.
LOL Lakers with Dwill or Paul would be more efficient but would have ZERO chance at a le ...
To win a le in the past 15 or so years you need:
Phil, pop, Doc, Riles, Rudy, Pop as coach
AND
Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, MJ, Wade or Hakeem as a star ...
Only exception The Larry Brown Pistons ...
A Bynum, paul Pau, brown and Artest squad may only get past the 2nd round ...
I know Laker and basically non-spurs fans are going to hate me for using this clip, because they'll probably think it's tacky and that I'm trying to show everyone how "great" the spurs are, but sorry you'll just have to suck it up because it's the best I can find right now.
But this -
is just really pretty, basic, fundamental, "read the opposing defense and react accordingly" basketball at the end of a close game. Ginobili-Duncan pick and roll, Ginobili gives the ball up the moment Utah hedges him, leaving Duncan wide open, thus Gino passes.
Duncan goes to the rim, forcing RJ's defender to come help, leaving RJ open. So on and so forth. Spurs and Celtics do this type of all the time at the ends of games. All the ing time. The shots don't always go in, but they are good, open shots.
Why can't Kobe do this with Pau? Kobe's more skilled than Ginobili. Pau is more skilled than Duncan.
If opposing team defenses are worried enough about Ginobili to hedge/double him like that and are worried enough about Duncan to help off of R.J., imagine how good it might work for L.A. with Kobe-Pau?
Maybe as a Spurs fan I'm just spoiled because I see this type of team-centric execution all the time down the stretch (though even Spurs will make mistakes, sometimes. Ginobili tried to go 1 on 1 to win the game against Boston a couple of weeks ago and failed, hard. He was blocked by Pierce. I blamed him for that play, and rightly so, despite the fact that he had a great overall game).
You don't necessarily run offense "for" any particular player. You run offense involving your best two players, get opposing team bodies moving around on the court, read the defense appropriately and take the appropriate shot (or pass, appropriately, to the open man).
I didn't see any of that on those possessions. Everybody cleared out for Kobe and Kobe went virtually 1 on 3 (sometimes 1 on 1). These are not good shots for Kobe. They aren't high percentage shots. We already know that. People who have bothered to keep track of Kobe's success/failures going 1 on 1 with the game on the line in 4th quarters are well aware that they simply aren't high percentage shots.
I'd like to think that a high P&R/S&R with Kobe-Pau might at least have given the Lakers (perhaps Kobe) a better look at the basket. Pau's not as worthless as most Lakers fans make him out to be. He's still considered a threat around the basket, believe it or not, and he's not nearly as inefficient as Lakers fans make him out to be. He doesn't even get the opportunity to potentially put his hands on the ends of games because Kobe wants to go 1 on 1. Who's fault is that? It's both Pau's and Kobe's faults, in my opinion.
I mean, if Phil/Kobe think Kobe going 1 on 1 is best for the team, then more power to Lakers' opponents. Lakers will continue losing in the last few minutes of close games because Kobe goes 1 on 1, and fans will continue to wonder why even when the answer is clear. Casual fans will look at "16-31" in the box score and assume Kobe couldn't have contributed at all to the loss.
Kobe played absolutely spectacularly for the first 43 minutes of the game. He is partly to blame for the Lakers loss for his play during the last 5 minutes. That's just how it is.
Could of left it at this ...
As far as the rest, I dont think Pau is useless ...in fact I would not be upset if a useless player (Walton) fails to show up in a big game.
But Pau is an all-star ...he has to SHOW up somehow someway ...Demand the ball. hit the boards they are plenty of ways to contribute ...and yes he is efficent very much so ...but I would take less efficency if he was more aggressive. what good is a high FG% and PER if you do not shoot enough?
Lamar can be quietly efficient because we are not counting on him as a primary scoring option
As far as the rest, I dont think Pau is useless ...in fact I would not be upset if a useless player (Walton) fails to show up in a big game.
But Pau is an all-star ...he has to SHOW up somehow someway ...Demand the ball. hit the boards they are plenty of ways to contribute ...and yes he is efficent very much so ...but I would take less efficency if he was more aggressive. what good is a high FG% and PER if you do not shoot enough?
Lamar can be quietly efficient because we are not counting on him as a primary scoring option
I know I've quoted you so far but the message isn't really for you. I know you are among the most level-headed, rational Lakers fans on the board, so I'm preaching to the choir in a sense. The message is mostly for every other Laker fan going into panic mode (why? it's a regular season game, and no this isn't some sarcastic attempt at a troll post) wishing for a trade right now.
Had L.A. executed well at the end and won the Boston game, would Lakers fans still have thought that LA needs a trade to compete?
You were virtually tied with one of the top 2 teams in basketball for most of the game. You don't need a trade. It was just poor execution down the stretch (again, message isn't for you KillaKobe, I know you already know this).
What can the LA hope to trade for without an expiring contract to offer that would make a difference?
Unless they want to give up Pau/Odom/Bynum, they aren't getting anything. They don't even have any proven young players they can give up or ones with enough upside.
I can't imagine anyone giving anything of value up for the reward of taking on Blake or Ron's contract.
I know Laker and basically non-spurs fans are going to hate me for using this clip, because they'll probably think it's tacky and that I'm trying to show everyone how "great" the spurs are, but sorry you'll just have to suck it up because it's the best I can find right now.
But this -
is just really pretty, basic, fundamental, "read the opposing defense and react accordingly" basketball at the end of a close game. Ginobili-Duncan pick and roll, Ginobili gives the ball up the moment Utah hedges him, leaving Duncan wide open, thus Gino passes.
Duncan goes to the rim, forcing RJ's defender to come help, leaving RJ open. So on and so forth. Spurs and Celtics do this type of all the time at the ends of games. All the ing time. The shots don't always go in, but they are good, open shots.
Why can't Kobe do this with Pau? Kobe's more skilled than Ginobili. Pau is more skilled than Duncan.
If opposing team defenses are worried enough about Ginobili to hedge/double him like that and are worried enough about Duncan to help off of R.J., imagine how good it might work for L.A. with Kobe-Pau?
Maybe as a Spurs fan I'm just spoiled because I see this type of team-centric execution all the time down the stretch (though even Spurs will make mistakes, sometimes. Ginobili tried to go 1 on 1 to win the game against Boston a couple of weeks ago and failed, hard. He was blocked by Pierce. I blamed him for that play, and rightly so, despite the fact that he had a great overall game).
Yeah that Sasha expiring contract could have at least given the Lakers a chance at guys like Kirk Hinrich or Stephen Jackson. Right now, they don't really have anything to offer a team in a possible trade scenario.
I'm no basketball expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I can recognize that Boston and San Antonio routinely go to a high pick and roll or screen and roll when the game is on the line.
People wonder why I scoff at the idea of Miami in the Finals over Boston? It's because Boston consistently plays team ball throughout the entire game, including the ends of close games, whereas Miami has too often relied on isolation plays for Lebron/Wade. Boston is 1st in pace-adjusted assists per 100 possessions. Miami is 27th. SA is 3rd. Lakers are 9th, which is still strong overall, but they seem to throw the "team" concept out the window when the game is close in lieu of Kobe 1 on 1 plays.
I know Laker and basically non-spurs fans are going to hate me for using this clip, because they'll probably think it's tacky and that I'm trying to show everyone how "great" the spurs are, but sorry you'll just have to suck it up because it's the best I can find right now.
But this -
is just really pretty, basic, fundamental, "read the opposing defense and react accordingly" basketball at the end of a close game. Ginobili-Duncan pick and roll, Ginobili gives the ball up the moment Utah hedges him, leaving Duncan wide open, thus Gino passes.
Duncan goes to the rim, forcing RJ's defender to come help, leaving RJ open. So on and so forth. Spurs and Celtics do this type of all the time at the ends of games. All the ing time. The shots don't always go in, but they are good, open shots.
Why can't Kobe do this with Pau? Kobe's more skilled than Ginobili. Pau is more skilled than Duncan.
If opposing team defenses are worried enough about Ginobili to hedge/double him like that and are worried enough about Duncan to help off of R.J., imagine how good it might work for L.A. with Kobe-Pau?
Maybe as a Spurs fan I'm just spoiled because I see this type of team-centric execution all the time down the stretch (though even Spurs will make mistakes, sometimes. Ginobili tried to go 1 on 1 to win the game against Boston a couple of weeks ago and failed, hard. He was blocked by Pierce. I blamed him for that play, and rightly so, despite the fact that he had a great overall game).
I dont disagree ... The Myth of Kobe Bryant as a clutch player pretty much says the same thinsg as what you posted only better. But even that article has flaws ...
The point is you are right you are used to the spurs way whic is effective and have won your team les. But so has Phil. In fact because he does go to Kobe (and Shaq and MJ before Kobe) so often ...it allows the Fish, horry, Kerr, Paxsons to hit most of the biggest shots on his le teams. So do I think the Lakers need a a minor move to win this year? Yes.
Do i advocate breaking up the core? No. Do I think PJ's/Kobe style is effective? yes!! we have won the past two les.
win one this year and get back to me ...with these clips of of how effective the spurs run offense because IIRC none of these plays ended with a victory vs the suns last playoff ...
LOL Lakers with Dwill or Paul would be more efficient but would have ZERO chance at a le ...
To win a le in the past 15 or so years you need:
Phil, pop, Doc, Riles, Rudy, Pop as coach
AND
Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, MJ, Wade or Hakeem as a star ...
Only exception The Larry Brown Pistons ...
A Bynum, paul Pau, brown and Artest squad may only get past the 2nd round ...
Moot point as: 1) Kobe has a no trade clause; and 2) he is the franchise and one of the true superstars in the game, and will not be traded.
However, Kobe NEVER won a damm thing either without either Shaq and/or one of the top tier front courts ever in the league with Gasol/Bynum/Odom; but in a fantasy world it would be very interesting to see how the very best of the NBA PGs such as Paul or Williams could take the Lakers and such a frontline without Kobe.
One of those two through FA or a sign and trade during the year before their FA - may get a chance anyway with Kobe sometime in the not too distant future, but by that time he may not be the player he is today and who knows about the rest of the team by that point.
Question for LAL fans - if the Suns said we offer you Nash for say Odom and Artest + whatever it takes to get the salary right do you do that deal? Odom has been the one constantly great player most of the year for LAL IMO so I would have to think about that one????
Also LAL fans how much would you truly give up to get Melo?
I wish the Lakers were classy & played team ball like the Spurs.
Me too ..lol. Damn that Kobe needing help from a good big man to win ...Oh wait Spurs won with a good big man (two in fact fo r the first two) and or the help of some of the best international players of the past decade ...
I dont disagree ... The Myth of Kobe Bryant as a clutch player pretty much says the same thinsg as what you posted only better. But even that article has flaws ...
The point is you are right you are used to the spurs way whic is effective and have won your team les. But so has Phil. In fact because he does go to Kobe (and Shaq and MJ before Kobe) so often ...it allows the Fish, horry, Kerr, Paxsons to hit most of the biggest shots on his le teams. So do I think the Lakers need a a minor move to win this year? Yes.
Do i advocate breaking up the core? No. Do I think PJ's/Kobe style is effective? yes!! we have won the past two les.
win one this year and get back to me ...with these clips of of how effective the spurs run offense because IIRC none of these plays ended with a victory vs the suns last playoff ...
That's a moot point. Why? Because Kobe and Pau are far more talented than Ginobili and Duncan. Everybody knows that.
I'm suggesting that Kobe and Pau might be more effective running sets than Kobe going 1 on 1.
I'm not suggesting that Ginobili/Duncan running sets is more effective than Kobe going 1 on 1, because that doesn't control for talent. Kobe is far more talented than both Ginobili and Duncan. That doesn't change the fact that running a set might be more optimal for the team. That's my point.
When the Spurs lose this year, it won't debunk my hypothesis necessarily. I'm merely suggesting that Phil might be prudent in calling more sets down the stretch instead of isolation plays for Kobe.
It's worked in the past and has won you championships because it was enough to overcome the opposition. That doesn't necessarily suggest that it was the most optimal/efficient way to run plays down the stretch. That's what I'm saying.
Right now, here and now, Kobe 1 on 1 clearly didn't work for at least 1 game down the stretch. It'll be interesting to see if Kobe is at least willing to try something different (p&r/s&r with Pau) during a playoff series and whether or not it will be too late once he decides to try something different.
Hey, if what he's doing now ends up working for him, more power to him.
S.A. losing is a moot point, though, because it doesn't control for the fact that Kobe is simply a far superior player.
Me too ..lol. Damn that Kobe needing help from a good big man to win ...Oh wait Spurs won with a good big man (two in fact fo r the first two) and or the help of some of the best international players of the past decade ...
what was the point again? LOL
yes sir and your Lakers with the help of West, Stern and let's not forget your farm team Grizzlies, what were you saying again?
That last six possessions video was kinda startling. Surprised PJ didn't call a timeout and set up a screen or something similar. Bynum just squatted by the paint, not moving. Poor Steve Blake kept running around the court to no avail. Fisher waited listlessly at the top of the arc. Strange.
I would not of run offense for Pau if he is gonna throw up soft fade away shots over smaller players ...
Watch the video if you didn't the first time because that's pretty much what Kobe was doing. He had Ray Allen on him, and although he didn't completely avoid attacking the rim (where he put up a double pump shot in traffic, and then fouled later on) he ended up doing his best Dirk impression most of those plays - high post 1 on 1, dribbling but going nowhere and then tossing in a few pumpfakes once he realizes Allen has, by some miracle, managed to stay on him and then throws up the fadeaway anyways.
That's a moot point. Why? Because Kobe and Pau are far more talented than Ginobili and Duncan. Everybody knows that.
I'm suggesting that Kobe and Pau might be more effective running sets than Kobe going 1 on 1.
I'm not suggesting that Ginobili/Duncan running sets is more effective than Kobe going 1 on 1, because that doesn't control for talent. Kobe is far more talented than both Ginobili and Duncan. That doesn't change the fact that running a set might be more optimal for the team. That's my point.
When the Spurs lose this year, it won't debunk my hypothesis necessarily. I'm merely suggesting that Phil might be prudent in calling more sets down the stretch instead of isolation plays for Kobe.
It's worked in the past and has won you championships because it was enough to overcome the opposition. That doesn't necessarily suggest that it was the most optimal/efficient way to run plays down the stretch. That's what I'm saying.
Right now, here and now, Kobe 1 on 1 clearly didn't work for at least 1 game down the stretch. It'll be interesting to see if Kobe is at least willing to try something different (p&r/s&r with Pau) during a playoff series and whether or not it will be too late once he decides to try something different.
Hey, if what he's doing now ends up working for him, more power to him.
S.A. losing is a moot point, though, because it doesn't control for the fact that Kobe is simply a far superior player.
Kobe and Pau more talented than Duncan and Manu is a fair statement but NOT BY MUCH NOW and certainly not in the prime of Duncan and at least on a per minute basis Manu has played at the level of Kobe the last few years and by nba.com was the clutchest player in the league. http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...ame/index.html Kobe was not even top ten using these metrics.
Kobe is superior to Manu but NOT FAR SUPERIOR as either a team or individual player. By PER Manu actually outperformed Kobe in the regular season at the SG last year by the way: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...n/sg/year/2010
Notice that Manu also has a higher TS% this year - he does not force things as Bryant sometimes does.
When healthy and rested Duncan and Manu are not that far behind Kobe and Gasol even today. Gasol is 9th among all players in the West and Duncan is 14th and Duncan is rebounding better than Gasol and also blocks more shots than Gasol per game DESPITE FEWER MINUTES http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...1/seasontype/2
Bottom line is that many people even Spurs fans over-estimate the drop off off Duncan and also underestimate how great Manu is - he is not Kobe Bryant but outside of D. Wade is the next best thing in the league.
A primary reason the Spurs are 40-7 and the Lakers are 33-15 Is that Duncan and Manu are playing more team oriented ball this year as well as getting more help from other players but they deserve a lot of credit - particularily Duncan for not complaining about not being the centerpiece while Gasol seems to be fading as Bryant takes over the offense more and more again.
I dont disagree ... The Myth of Kobe Bryant as a clutch player pretty much says the same thinsg as what you posted only better. But even that article has flaws ...
The point is you are right you are used to the spurs way whic is effective and have won your team les. But so has Phil. In fact because he does go to Kobe (and Shaq and MJ before Kobe) so often ...it allows the Fish, horry, Kerr, Paxsons to hit most of the biggest shots on his le teams. So do I think the Lakers need a a minor move to win this year? Yes.
Do i advocate breaking up the core? No. Do I think PJ's/Kobe style is effective? yes!! we have won the past two les.
win one this year and get back to me ...with these clips of of how effective the spurs run offense because IIRC none of these plays ended with a victory vs the suns last playoff ...
Kinda sounding alittle defensive and butthurt with this statement tbh. If you think that this years version of the Spurs is the same as last years Spurs squad, your really not paying attention. If you've watched the Spurs this year, and with you being a legit BB and Laker fan, I'm sure you've have, you will have noticed a completely different Spurs team offensively, with Pop playing with to the strengths of this Spurs team, which is their depth of perimeter players. The Lakers, so far this season, are beginning to show their age on the defensive side of the ball, particularly the pg position. Can the Lakers improve with a trade? Debatable, but it helps that that the Lakers owner has deep pockets and would take on bad contracts, if it improves the Lakers. Are the Lakers just coasting and can they just turn on the switch? Debatable, and risky because, while the Lakers are a great team, they are not a dominant team. I respect the Lakers, but definitely don't fear them.
Kobe and Pau more talented than Duncan and Manu is a far statement but NOT BY MUCH NOW and certainly not in the prime of Duncan and at least on a per minute basis Manu has played at the level of Kobe the last few years and by nba.com was the clutchest player in the league. http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...ame/index.html Kobe was not even top ten using these metrics.
Kobe is superior to Manu but NOT FAR SUPERIOR as either a team or individual player. By PER Manu actually outperformed Kobe in the regular season at the SG last year by the way: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...n/sg/year/2010
Notice that Manu also has a higher TS% this year - he does not force things as Bryant sometimes does.
When healthy and rested Duncan and Manu are not that far behind Kobe and Gasol even today. Gasol is 9th among all players in the West and Duncan is 14th and Duncan is rebounding better than Gasol and also blocks more shots than Gasol per game DESPITE FEWER MINUTES http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...1/seasontype/2
Bottom line is that many people even Spurs fans over-estimate the drop off off Duncan and also underestimate how great Manu is - he is not Kobe Bryant but outside of D. Wade is the next best thing in the league.
I'd rather not turn this into a "Manu isn't that much worse than Kobe; , he's actually more efficient overall!" thread. It's been discussed up the ass already in plenty of other threads.
I didn't bother making careful distinctions between just how much better Kobe is than Manu because it wasn't necessary for the purposes of my post. The only necessary piece of information is that Kobe is overall the better player. And, again, the only point of bringing that up was to demonstrate how S.A. losing won't debunk my hypothesis that sets are more efficient than superstar isolation plays.
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