What if we relocate Israel to Montana???

[ChumpDumper]

This was my first quote in the thread, talking about present-day terrorism. It was relevant to the topic, because if Israel is 'removed' you are rewarding the Palestinians and punishing the Jews. If anything, the reverse should happen, as the Israelis are in the right and possess the land. Now you bring up giving Israel billions of dollars, because you no longer want to discuss or admit how sparing innocents > slaughtering innocents (that's 'too binary' for you).

It's true, but ultimately a stupid argument.

Is that why you want to cheerlead for them and give them billions a year?

those trying to butcher innocents, and those trying to spare them. Brilliant conclusion.

They do plenty else that is reprehensible.

Yes, them.

They are ing you and you seem to love it.

Why do you love them so much?

No one can explain to me why they are so in the tank for Israel.

[Vici]

I only read so far but I'm assuming I'm the only one here who has taken a class on the history or Israel. The are many underlying causes for the crisis including religion but that major factor is land.

Pre-Israel Palestine was thought to be largely uninhabited. This started a movement across Europe of Jews relocating. There were several mass immigrations starting in the 19th century and finalized after the holocaust.

The Palestinians were largely a people without an iden y. They were once part of a greater Syria which composed of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and present day Israel. The British and French cut up the country to those we see today with (I believe) Jordan and Palestine (israel) going to the British. This caused a divide where the Lebanese and Syrians would be educated by the French with the Palestinians and Jordanians being taught by the British. This doesn't sound like much but the Frnech and British have very different philosophies which started a rift.

Jordan was eventually given to a deposed member of the Saudi family which left Palestine by itself. Palestine really did not have an iden y of who these people were at the time other than their geographical location.

Once the Jewish settlers came they shook the culture down to the core. The settlers would only hire other Jews for work in order to keep wages high and encourage more to settle. The effect on the local population was obviously very harmful.

Long story short more settlers came which pushed the poorer local population out. This single act is what gave the Palestinians their iden y. They are actually unique in that they are the only culture in the world whose iden y comes as the anti-iden y of another culture. The religious aspect was something that didn't pop up until later as a unifying factor of that culture. It was just something to help bind the Palestinians together.

Long story short, the only way you will ever have peace between those two people is if Palestine changes their culture or Israel fully integrates a muslim religion into their country. Neither of which will ever happen.

[ChumpDumper]

What is Israel's endgame here?

I'd like it explained to me.

And no, I'm not glossing over the endgame of many Muslim groups -- I know what theirs is.

[ChumpDumper]

I think the relocation question is a silly one -- but would Israelis prefer to be rid of all the Arabs within what they believe are their borders?

[Nbadan]

I think most Israeli would like to see a stable Palestinian state but many recent Israeli immigrants and right-wing groups support the building of illegal settlements on Palestinian land...

Jerusalem should be a holy city to both Jews and Muslims instead of a point of contention..

[ChumpDumper]

So would they want a buffer zone beyond their actual borders, like they had before?

[Vici]

Israel's endgame is it's existence. A purely Jewish state on Jewish holy land. Most of the people who settled there came from very ty situations all over the world not limited to the obvious. The only major exception were the Jews who lived in the United States. There was actually a conference where they decided that they would stay in the United States and live as American but they would keep their unique Jewish culture.

I'm really really tired and I'm sure my sentences aren't flowing well but Israel doesn't have plans for global domination or anything like that. It just wants to exist... and like I said before Palestine only wants it to not exist lol.

[Nbadan]

With all the rockets being lobbed over the border they sure as would

You know the Palestinian only fire on illegal Israeli settlements now...not to justify terror, just saying..

[Vici]

I think the relocation question is a silly one -- but would Israelis prefer to be rid of all the Arabs within what they believe are their borders?

It depends who you talk to but most Israelis wouldn't mind arabs living with them as long as they are docile and understand that Israel is a Jewish country before anything else.

[ChumpDumper]

Israel's endgame is it's existence. A purely Jewish state on Jewish holy land.

Thanks for your input.

"Purely" sounds a bit odd in this context.

[Nbadan]

So would they want a buffer zone beyond their actual borders, like they had before?

The buffer zone ain't going away anytime soon...

[ChumpDumper]

The buffer zone ain't going away anytime soon...

Well, it used to be a lot bigger.

[Thompson]

It's true, but ultimately a stupid argument.

What?

No one can explain to me why they are so in the tank for Israel.

butcher innocents=bad
spare innocents=good

Also as they are surrounded by nations hostile to them, I respect their military's ability to fight off what are (on paper) overwhelmingly superior forces, even when taken by complete surprise. I respect the relative restraint they've shown when dealing with hostile Palestinians who would gleefully slaughter them if they had the chance; I don't think we would do any better (perhaps not even as well as they do) if we were in their situation. You don't have to be 'in the tank' to come out on their side; if nothing else,

butcher innocents=bad
spare innocents (in spite of the fact that they may wish you harm)=good

[Vici]

Thanks for your input.

"Purely" sounds a bit odd in this context.

By purely I mean to say there is no ambiguity to what Israel is... a Jewish country.

[Nbadan]

I think Israel has a larger end game...

[ChumpDumper]

What?





butcher innocents=bad
spare innocents=good

Also as they are surrounded by nations hostile to them, I respect their military's ability to fight off what are (on paper) overwhelmingly superior forces, even when taken by complete surprise. I respect the relative restraint they've shown when dealing with hostile Palestinians who would gleefully slaughter them if they had the chance; I don't think we would do any better (perhaps not even as well as they do) if we were in their situation. You don't have to be 'in the tank' to come out on their side; if nothing else,

butcher innocents=bad
spare innocents (in spite of the fact that they may wish you harm)=good

Have you ever questioned anything Israel has done?

If so, what?

[Thompson]

I think the relocation question is a silly one -- but would Israelis prefer to be rid of all the Arabs within what they believe are their borders?

I'm sure they would. They have the power to make it so, and yet they spare the Palestinians. If the situations were reversed, the Jews would be slaughtered.

[ChumpDumper]

I think Israel has a larger end game...

Which is?

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sure they would. They have the power to make it so, and yet they spare the Palestinians. If the situations were reversed, the Jews would be slaughtered.

There are ways to accomplish this other than slaughter.

[Thompson]

Have you ever questioned anything Israel has done?

If so, what?

There was once a Palestinian boy who realized most of the propaganda against the Jews was B.S. When he was got older, he started working for Mossad as a double agent. He did a lot of good things for them, but eventually the work got too dangerous, and he wanted out. He didn't rat them out or anything, but even after all he had done for them Mossad sold him out to the British, I believe (falsely claiming he was spying on them or something). I'm sure there are thousands, millions of other bad things that Israel has done, as is the case with any nation. You can't get so hung up on shades of gray and perspective that you lose sight of the big picture, however.

A. The Israelis have the power to wipe out the Palestinians, who wish all Jews were dead. They don't. They do what they can to spare innocent life.

B. The Palestinians would slaughter the Israelis if their roles were reversed. They brainwash teenagers and make mentally challenged kids go blow themselves up on buses, hoping to butcher as many innocent women and children as possible.

Is the choice really that difficult for you? Saying Israel is clearly in the right here does not mean the entire nation is without blemish of any sort, nor does it many that there are no Palestinians anywhere who are good people. Whatever their blemishes may be, this is not a difficult choice. Israel is in the right.

Have you ever questioned any decision you've reached once you've reached it? Don't you think it's safe to finally admit there is a right and wrong side of the situation, and Israel is in the right (not to say they're purely, absolutely right in everything they've ever done, not to say they deserve every penny we give them). It should be the easiest thing in the world to admit that because of the value they place on human life, even the lives of people who hate them, Israel is in the right for valuing the lives of the innocent, and the Palestinians are in the wrong for slaughtering them.

[Thompson]

There are ways to accomplish this other than slaughter.

Yes, they could simply push the Palestinians outside of their claimed borders. Pick a country like Syria, and force them over the border, not giving a damn what happens to them when they get there.

[ChumpDumper]

[Words]

One practice is worse than the other.

Doesn't change my opinion that they can both get ed.

Is Israel infallible in your eyes?

Have they ever done anything wrong?

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, they could simply push the Palestinians outside of their claimed borders. Pick a country like Syria, and force them over the border, not giving a damn what happens to them when they get there.

Or they could systematically move into Palestinian or disputed territories over a period of years or decades.

Could they not?

[Thompson]

One practice is worse than the other.

Doesn't change my opinion that they can both get ed.

Is Israel infallible in your eyes?

Have they ever done anything wrong?

You asked for a specific example. I gave you one example. There are thousands. If I give you a second, you'll ask for a third, fourth, etc. Of course they're not infallible. I never said this, if fact, quite the opposite. Why are you arguing against positions I've never taken?

[ChumpDumper]

You asked for a specific example. I gave you one example. There are thousands. If I give you a second, you'll ask for a third, fourth, etc. Of course they're not infallible. I never said this, if fact, quite the opposite. Why are you arguing against positions I've never taken?

Ok, one.

That's enough, I guess.

Big picture for you is Israel good, give them whatever they want. No questions asked.

Cool.