I see your Jason Witten, jjktkk, and I raise you an Andre Johnson (and yes, I'm a Cowboys fan)
Dirk> Ginobili
only homer spur fans would think otherwise
You pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I give him credit for the 2006 Finals. He's a champ in my eyes for that year, because anyone could see how lopsided the officiating was, not to mention his team sucked hard and lol Josh Howard timeout.
It really sucks that he bricked those free throws though. I know it's not entirely his fault his team lost because he was the only reason they were in a position to win but I imagine it's like Manu's foul...you think " man what the is wrong with you?!?!?" but you give him a pass because he got you there in the first place and it shouldn't have even come down to that.
So yeah, Dirk is definitely the best European baller ever in the NBA and definitely one of the most underrated players ever. You're right though, having Don Nelson as a coach all those years ago was probably extremely detrimental to those Maverick teams. They had a big three and then guys like Van Exel who was a beast in the playoffs for them. Nelson just never gave a about defense.
This argument doesn't make sense. If both players "need" to get a certain number of points/rebounds, and both players get at least that, how is it "not quite enough" for 1 of the 2?
If you're trying to say that one of two players consistently gets "more than enough", then you need to re-think your argument...
So we're saying best player in Texas not named Matt Bonner?
First off, it isn't an argument, it's an opinion. That is all. Secondly, thats not at all what I was trying to say.
Last edited by UnWantedTheory; 02-19-2011 at 04:53 PM.
Ok, then what were you trying to say? What was your "opinion"?
Just so I don't have to type a long ass paragraph explaining myself, I will just say I have more faith in Duncan's ability to go the extra mile & deliver a W.
Shank, your response is akin to: "He's right. Which is why I'm not going to get into or debate any actual point made. But because I'm a defensive fan boy and I'm annoyed that he's exposed Nowitzki as the overrated, one dimensional player that he is, I've got to reply with something, to pretend as if he doesn't know what he's talking about".
Phillip, the numbers don't lie and unlike you, they have no bias; they just present the facts. Nowitzki corrals 11.2%, T-119th. That's terrible for someone 7-0, whether he plays in the paint on not. Garnett plays plenty in the mid post, yet he's a far better rebounder. Don't give me this crap about "athletic ability", when Garnett is going on 35. Whether you want to admit it or not, Nowitzki is verging on being a terrible rebounder and that's being generous.
Hoops Czar, it's clear you lack basic reading comprehension, as you've failed twice now to grasp a simple point. I'll say it one more time, this time in bold (third times a charm?): The main reason the Mavs struggled without Nowitzki is because either their second or third best scorer and their fourth best scorer were already injured when he got injured. That left them perilously thin in terms of shot creation and left them with no one who's worthy of significant attention from defenses. It also left them without a rotation quality PF. That's not a knock on Nowitzki, though, it just speaks to their composition. I notice you failed to answer my question. Not surprising, since you probably failed to grasp the analogy.
I didn't overstate Butler's impact and I never made this about Beaubois. Learn to read.
The '06 chokejob falls squarely on Nowitzki's shoulders, just like it would have any lead player, particularly when they're of the elite variety (which he supposedly is). There's no excuse for his team, which was on the verge of a 3-0 Finals lead, to inexplicably blow the series and lose four straight to a clearly inferior team.
Don't put Duncan and Nowitzki in the same category. Duncan carried a ridiculous load from 01-05. How quickly people forget how little help he had. He won two les without a go-to perimeter player and the second one was without a second star period and went through a three-time defending champ to do it. He's also accomplished what he has with his team rarely exceeding the tax.
The numbers don't lie. Nowitzki's at 11.2%, good for T-119th. Splitter's at 14.0, good for 73rd. Splitter's clearly a superior rebounder to Nowitzki. I never said Splitter is a good rebounder, though and I also never said thank god he's white, or he'd be receiving the Mahinmi treatment. More made up garbage.
Another question evaded. I didn't ask you who was better currently between Duncan and Nowitzki, I asked you what Nowitzki did better than Duncan currently, besides range shooting?
Last edited by TD 21; 02-19-2011 at 08:21 PM.
Okay that's just ing re ed. Dirk is a much better rebounder than Splitter.
Why can't dumbass spurfan respect Dirk? The guy is a once in a generation player. Going to be a sad day when he hangs 'em up.
Its not reading comprehension, its your erroneously faulty analogy that makes no sense. The Mavs were at full strength when Dirk went down minus Roddy. Let me spell it out for you... The second leading scorer was Jason Terry (15.9); third leading scorer Caron Butler (15.0); fourth leading scorer Shawn Marion (11.6). What's not to understand? They were all present and accounted for when Dirk went down. The Dallas offense runs through Dirk. When he's out, the offense breaks down. Dirk had a league-high 27.0 plus-minus differential prior to his injury, when Nowitzki's in the game, the Mavs had outscored their opponent by 13.3 points per 48 minutes. When he was out, the Mavs got outscored by 13.7 points per 48 minutes. That's the largest swing for any one player in the league. So, who is this phantom second and fourth best scorer already injured you speak of? I truly see a disconnect but its not on this end. Help me help you...
With Dirk back in the fold and their third leading scoring out of the mix, the Mavs have rattled off 14 of their last 15. Coincidence anyone?
In order for their to be a choke, the choker must be the favored. If your going top scorn Nowitzki for the 2006 Finals choke job, you must hold Duncan accountable for the Western Conference Semis choke job against these same Mavs eventhough it was Ginobili's careless foul on Nowitzki in the closing seconds of regulation that ultimately propelled Dallas to the WCF's. the Spurs were the favorites to win the le.
All told, Dallas has only two choke jobs (2006 Finals, 2007) in the Dirk era which ironically matches the Spurs in total (2004, 2006). I personally don't blame one particular player for a choke. Basketball is a team sport. You win as a team and lose as a team.
Your placing too much value on the superstar. I'm not questioning one of the greatest power forwards ever to grace this game. However, you put less emphasis on the team and more onto the player. In 2003, he had plenty of support with Stephen Jackson and manu ginobili, who could create their own shots and were always a threat to drop long range bombs and lets not exclude the cutting and slashing guard play from Tony Parker and Speedy Claxton. They also had one of the best one-on-one defenders in the NBA in Bowen who could also knock down the corner three. All that and I didn't even mention The Admiral, Malik Rose or Steve Kerr. One might say that was the deepest Spurs roster in the Duncan Era... short on Super Stars but plenty of balance.
In 2005, the spurs relied on balance from a prine TP and Manu along with a steady dose of Duncan. They still had the leagues best defender in Bowen, and two long range bombers in B. Barry and Robert Horry. Again, not discounting Duncan's importance in any way, but the chemistry and composition was much better than anything the Mavs could account for in the Dirk era.
I can't comment on the Tax because the Spurs don't have Cuban's money to fall back on, but the big three (primarily Duncan and Manu) did restructure their contracts to keep the core together. Until this year, The Mavs have relied heavily on offense to get them that coveted championship, but similarly to the Phoenix Suns, lack of Defense would lead to their ultimate demise. Dallas has never had a defender like Tyson Chandler so it will be interesting to see how things shake out come playoff time. But again to restate... Dirk doesn't hand pick his teammates. He has no control over the roster. Its up to Mark Cuban to find the right mix of players that will deliver a championship to D-Town.
When you make statements like this, I envision Bobo the clown sitting on the toilet reading the funnies. Let me show you how statistical manipulation works.... a quick statistical comparison between Tiago Splitter and Ian Mahimni (per 36 minutes).
.......................FG%....ORB....DRB....TRB... .AST....STL....BLK...PPG
Tiago Splitter.....509......3.0......5.8.....8.8....1.4. .....1.2....0.9....13.3
Ian Mahimni.......608.....3.3......7.0.....10.3...0.7. .....0.7...1.6.....19.1
One can surmise by looking at the raw data that Mahimni is by far and away the better overall player and 3 years younger to boot. Although, that's not the belief by many.
So, when you tell me that Splitter is by far and away a better rebounder than Nowitzki, you understand why I can't help but laugh. I don't expect Splitter's garbage time production to trump Nowitski's because you found a statistic that says it to be true. Just a hunch, but if you run through that stat again and select the option "qualified players", Splitter's name would disappear.
I don't believe I dodged the question. I think your confusing yourself or misinterpreting the thread en led "Best payer in Texas?". This is a tug-a-war between offense and defense...pick your preference. Dirk is all things offense while TD is all things defense. Nowitzki leads in PPG, FG%, 3P-FG%, FT%, eFG%, TOV%, USG%, and ORtg%. Duncan conversely, leads in all the major defensive categories. However, i will point out that TWS (total win shares), and WS/48 (win shares/ 48 minutes), which are the number of wins contributed by the player that combines both offensive and defensive win shares gives a decided advantage to Nowitzki:
..................Dirk Nowitzki................Tim Duncan
Win Shares.........7.1..............................5. 7
Win Shares/48....210..............................171
All this means is Dirk Nowitzki is more valuable to his team than Duncan. In other words, If Duncan went down with an injury, the Spurs could still survive until Duncan returns. This isn't to minimizing Duncans value or effectiveness to the Spurs, make no mistake about it, no Duncan in the playoffs means no championship. Conversely, if Dirk went down for an extended period of time, Dallas would be hit much harder because they would lack the depth and dependency that Dirk brings to the table. The entire Dallas offense runs through Dirk. When Dirk is out, the Mavs don't have a reliable no. 2. That may be part of the Mav's problem. They rely too heavily on one player to shoulder the load. It's why they've struggled to reach the pinnacle and win the ultimate prize.
Career wise, Duncan is the better player, but Nowitzki is clearly having the better season.
Last edited by Hoops Czar; 02-21-2011 at 12:34 AM.
I haven't seen anything about another quality that a great player brings to the game.
What about the ability--and willingness--to make his teammates better by using his skills in team offense and team defense?
Duncan, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and a few other current superstars use that ability as part of their game. You expect it from premier point guards, not so much from big men.
How about an answer to this question to settle this great discussion.
Situation: 7th Game of the NBA finals. 10 seconds to go. Behind by 2 points. The player who gets the ball must be able to anticipate and play against a double team from the opposing team's best defenders, make the decision to shoot from the perimeter for 3, drive if that's what they give you, pass to an open teammate, make a foul shot if necessary to win the game.
What player gets the ball? When we were kids, playing in the gym or on the driveway, it was us. But today, in the real world, who is the MAN?
That's the best player in Texas.
In the past, I would say Duncan . But in the here and now, eventhough he's going through a rough patch, Gino with his ability to create and defer to the open shooter and his ability to knock down free throws. The balls got to be in his hands.
Muser, I have respect for his game. Unlike the vast majority, I have the proper respect and not an inflated amount. And the numbers aren't "re ed". They don't lie and they have no biases.
It's reading comprehension. Not long after Nowitzki went down, so too did Butler. Beaubois was already out. They're the third and fourth scorers I'm referring to. So, having all three out is what ground their offense to a halt. Again I'll say, though, that that's not a knock on Nowitzki and speaks more to the composition of their roster.
The Mavs were favored to win the '06 Finals, as they should have been. They had a better team and they had home court. The only thing they didn't have was the best player in the series (despite many thinking they did going in). How did Duncan choke in that series? He played one of the greatest series in recent memory. It took beyond awful officiating and a player on his own team costing his team the series. What exactly did you want Duncan to do about either? Duncan is one of the most accomplished, proven players in the history of the game. His legacy and reputation are intact. Nowitzki is a career loser, who never got it done when it mattered most and if he weren't white, he'd never live his numerous failures down.In order for their to be a choke, the choker must be the favored. If your going top scorn Nowitzki for the 2006 Finals choke job, you must hold Duncan accountable for the Western Conference Semis choke job against these same Mavs eventhough it was Ginobili's careless foul on Nowitzki in the closing seconds of regulation that ultimately propelled Dallas to the WCF's. the Spurs were the favorites to win the le.
All told, Dallas has only two choke jobs (2006 Finals, 2007) in the Dirk era which ironically matches the Spurs in total (2004, 2006). I personally don't blame one particular player for a choke. Basketball is a team sport. You win as a team and lose as a team.
He had a team full of role players in '03. None of those guys were legit second stars, especially not for a championship team. It's easy to look back at the names and go "he had plenty of help", but anyone who watched the team game in, game out back then knows better.Your placing too much value on the superstar. I'm not questioning one of the greatest power forwards ever to grace this game. However, you put less emphasis on the team and more onto the player. In 2003, he had plenty of support with Stephen Jackson and manu ginobili, who could create their own shots and were always a threat to drop long range bombs and lets not exclude the cutting and slashing guard play from Tony Parker and Speedy Claxton. They also had one of the best one-on-one defenders in the NBA in Bowen who could also knock down the corner three. All that and I didn't even mention The Admiral, Malik Rose or Steve Kerr. One might say that was the deepest Spurs roster in the Duncan Era... short on Super Stars but plenty of balance.
In 2005, the spurs relied on balance from a prine TP and Manu along with a steady dose of Duncan. They still had the leagues best defender in Bowen, and two long range bombers in B. Barry and Robert Horry. Again, not discounting Duncan's importance in any way, but the chemistry and composition was much better than anything the Mavs could account for in the Dirk era.
I can't comment on the Tax because the Spurs don't have Cuban's money to fall back on, but the big three (primarily Duncan and Manu) did restructure their contracts to keep the core together. Until this year, The Mavs have relied heavily on offense to get them that coveted championship, but similarly to the Phoenix Suns, lack of Defense would lead to their ultimate demise. Dallas has never had a defender like Tyson Chandler so it will be interesting to see how things shake out come playoff time. But again to restate... Dirk doesn't hand pick his teammates. He has no control over the roster. Its up to Mark Cuban to find the right mix of players that will deliver a championship to D-Town.
Parker was not in his prime in '05. In fact, he struggled mightily in the '05 Finals. The only reason the Spurs were better than the Mavs back then was because they had the best player on the planet, who could do virtually anything. The Mavs had a one dimensional choke artist, who couldn't carry them to the promised land.
The Spurs have rarely paid the tax and when they have, they haven't exceeded it by $ 15 or 20 million, like the Mavs do annually. Of course the Mavs have had to rely heavily on offense, because they had a 7-footer on the back line who played like a 6-5 guy. An all too familiar fate is awaiting the Mavs: 2nd round exit, this time at the hands of the Lakers. When will people ever learn that a team with Nowitzki as their best player can't win a championship? It's been made abundantly clear, yet every season hope springs eternal and their past is forgotten. People have selective amnesia when it comes to the Mavs. Cuban has spent oodles of cash; don't blame him. Blame his sorry excuse for a 7-footer, who hasn't been able to put them over the top.
You've dodged it multiple times, because the truth is, deep down you know that the only thing Nowitzki has on Duncan is range shooting. The Spurs couldn't survive more than a couple of games without Duncan, because he's to the Spurs defensively what Nowitzki is to the Mavs offensively. Take him out and the Spurs West's best defense would fall off considerably. It would be a layup drill inside.I don't believe I dodged the question. I think your confusing yourself or misinterpreting the thread en led "Best payer in Texas?". This is a tug-a-war between offense and defense...pick your preference. Dirk is all things offense while TD is all things defense. Nowitzki leads in PPG, FG%, 3P-FG%, FT%, eFG%, TOV%, USG%, and ORtg%. Duncan conversely, leads in all the major defensive categories. However, i will point out that TWS (total win shares), and WS/48 (win shares/ 48 minutes), which are the number of wins contributed by the player that combines both offensive and defensive win shares gives a decided advantage to Nowitzki:
..................Dirk Nowitzki................Tim Duncan
Win Shares.........7.1..............................5. 7
Win Shares/48....210..............................171
All this means is Dirk Nowitzki is more valuable to his team than Duncan. In other words, If Duncan went down with an injury, the Spurs could still survive until Duncan returns. This isn't to minimizing Duncans value or effectiveness to the Spurs, make no mistake about it, no Duncan in the playoffs means no championship. Conversely, if Dirk went down for an extended period of time, Dallas would be hit much harder because they would lack the depth and dependency that Dirk brings to the table. The entire Dallas offense runs through Dirk. When Dirk is out, the Mavs don't have a reliable no. 2. That may be part of the Mav's problem. They rely too heavily on one player to shoulder the load. It's why they've struggled to reach the pinnacle and win the ultimate prize.
Career wise, Duncan is the better player, but Nowitzki is clearly having the better season.
No, they've struggled to reach the pinnacle and win the ultimate prize because they didn't have a truly great player who could carry a flawed team to glory, like Duncan did in '99 and '03. It's funny, when Robinson couldn't win without Duncan, he was criticized. When Nowitzki can't win, it's "he doesn't have enough help" (never mind the fact that his team annually has a bloated payroll).
I didn't disagree that Nowitzki is having the better season. Another perfect example of your lack of reading comprehension. What I said was, I'd still take Duncan over him, because he still impacts the game in more ways.
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