Dirk v 'Melo

[Shank]

Fin - PM me. I'll hook you up with my tickets to the Mavs/Spurs game on March 18th.

[Killakobe81]

I specifically said I wasn't comparing Dave and Dirk as players nor is this thread about Dirk being a choker.

There are parallels between the two players (Dave and Dirk), how they are/were treated by their fans and detractors and the roles they had on their respective teams as their franchise players, but that's where the comparison ends.

I'm not gonna turn a Dirk v 'Melo thread into a Dave v Dirk thread. It's irrelevant to this thread and why it came about.

'Melo's why I asked the question.

I get that, and didnt meant to hi-jack thread or denigrate David. Was just making a point. I would at this point in their careers take Dirk. Just like I would take Kobe over Lebron ...
BUT Dirk is at his peak now Melo has a chance to get better same for Lebron.
As good as Lebron and Melo have been neither have accomplished yet what Kobe, Dirk or duncan has ...

so to answer the question, depends if you say right now or for the future ...
Melo still has a chance (though he may not ever get there) to be greater than dirk when it's all over ....Dirk wont be better than he is now ...most likely.

[Killakobe81]

And was not making this about kobe either ... obviously right now Lebron is more dominating player and has the chance to pass Kobe ...some feel he may already have (career wise) ...

[Findog]

And was not making this about kobe either ... obviously right now Lebron is more dominating player and has the chance to pass Kobe ...some feel he may already have (career wise) ...

LeBron is certainly more productive and consistent when it comes to the regular season, but Kobe seems to have more of a killer instinct in the playoffs. Just my opinion. I still think those Cavs teams could have won a le, if either A) they had somehow been able to avoid a bad matchup in Orlando, since the playoffs are about luck to a certain degree in not drawing your Achilles Heel and B) he didn't quit against Boston last year.

[JamStone]

Shaq is such a waste of talent. He should have won twice as many les as he did. At his peak he was what, a 35/16 guy? Garnett's teams have won big any time he has been surrounded by adequate talent. Garnett is a bit of a soft bully in the way he only picks on guards and wing players and never anybody his own size, but he is much more of a warrior than Shaq. That's not the same as claiming he was better at his peak than Shaq was at his, just that Garnett's work ethic was much better and he milked every last ounce of achievement out of his body in a way that Shaq didn't come close to doing.

Yeah the forum has missed your posting.

[Axe Murderer]

Fin, bringin the goods as always

great poster

[MavDynasty]

Fin, bringin the goods as always

great poster

[JamStone]

Let's not let their off-court demeanor cloud reality, please. Kevin Garnett wishes he were the warrior Shaq has been throughout his career.

I hope you're not serious.

KG for all his barking and assness since joining the Celtics, you can never question his passion for the game or his effort level on the court. You're blinded by some varying degree of hate to think Shaq is more of a warrior than KG.

For all his dominance, Shaq, as Fin pointed out, is such a wasted talent. He'd take portions of regular seasons off, didn't condition, train, or watch his diet, was just as enamored with a rap and film career as winning championships. Shaq is and always has been a combination of pure basketball dominance and a self-aggrandizing spectacle. If you give Shaq KG's work ethic, intensity, and desire to win, Shaq is in the conversation with Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain as the greatest ever.

As FkLA was getting at, Shaq has been just as much about his image and how he entertained while KG (even with the barking) has always been about winning no matter how much of a bag he comes across as.

[ElNono]

I'd take Dirk tbh.

I really liked Melo but he's just another one of those incredibly talented players that doesnt seem to care. Always smiling and lollygagging on the court. You know guys like Duncan, Kobe, Manu, Rose, Durant, and even Wade are all business and go hard all game. While gots like Bosh, DHoward, and at times LeBron seem to care more about looking cute out there on the court. I hate this new era of superstars that think its cool to look disinterested or something, or to smile all game long. Dirk falls into the former and Melo into the latter imo. Completely irrelevant to their talents but I dont see those type of disinterested players leading teams to les. Even Dirk has a better chance at doing that. Give me him.

[Brazil]

Nice to have you back Findog !

[Brazil]

+1

well put. Dirk definitely is not an ideal defender, but he generally plays solid team defense, usually is good about being in proper position with the various defensive schemes he plays in, and you can tell that the defense suffers without his presence, because simply having that size and length instantly makes the defense a bit tougher to attack.

and this is exactly why it's easier IMHO to build around Dirk than Melo

[DesignatedT]

Fin - PM me. I'll hook you up with my tickets to the Mavs/Spurs game on March 18th.

I'll take those tickets. How much you asking son?

[FkLA]

I think the once in a lifetime players like Shaq can still have some sucess despite not having the work ethic of some of the other greats. I think LeBron wouldve eventually won a le in Celeveland as well. But I dont think the same could be said for someone like Dwight, and especially not Carmelo. These guys arent head and shoulders more skilled AND physically gifted than the rest of the elite players in this league...they require an exceptional drive to reach the top, which they dont seem to possess tbh. Its a shame really seeing so many superstar caliber players with these at udes.

[FkLA]

smh

+1 on the welcome back Findog posts too.

[Obstructed_View]

I hope you're not serious.

KG for all his barking and assness since joining the Celtics, you can never question his passion for the game or his effort level on the court. You're blinded by some varying degree of hate to think Shaq is more of a warrior than KG.

Would you stop with the word "hate" please? It's ridiculous. My opinion is more of a nod to Shaq than a knock on KG. Shaq's a clown, and a self-promoting prima dona, but he's stepped up when it mattered throughout his career. He certainly doesn't belong in the second group mentioned, and holding up KG as the standard after his years of failure in Minnesota is ridiculous.

If you give Shaq the average NBA player's work ethic, he actually shows up in shape, likely has far fewer injuries, and puts up disgusting numbers over the course of his career.

[Killakobe81]

Some great points in this thread. Real basketball talk, whowouldathunkit?

Definitely agree about KG's work ethic, shaq with it is not only in the MJ convo but he would of been the GOAT IMHO. I never saw Wilt, so I cant say he would of been better than Wilt, Oscar or Russell ...but I saw Kareem and MJ and Shaq is not on their level, even at his peak but wasnt THAT far behind. I also agree it may not take KG's drive .... even Grant Hill's or Bernard King's drive to overcome the DEVESTATING injuries they faced, instead of Shaq's Bynumesque non chalant at ude in handling them, and Shaq is probably GOAT.

As for KG he may be an ass, and borderline dirty, but he does play the game hard ...always. You have to admire that. A guy that if he played with you would always appreciate, but against you that you would want to beat his ass ...but he was not very clutch in Minny ...and it can be argued that most of the clutch plays on offense for these Celts have NOT been delivered by KG in fact I can think of many times where he has not came through ...MOST of the clutch moments I have seen have been the key block, steal or rebound but those matter just as much because they set up Pierce and Ray to win it.

[Killakobe81]

I think one thing to keep in mind is the expectations we have for players shape the perceptions of both KG, shaq and many other great players. When we see great physical gifts, or players enter the NBA with a lot of hype ...even if they have great careers if it does not meet those expectations we judge more harshly. Here are some other examples:

1. David Robinson/Pat Ewing both were great college players. Neither was able to win a Finals as the alpha males of their teams. Though both are HOF's graded against what was expected of them though far from failures ...both get shortchanged because the expectation was that they would dominate the league but both came up short to Hakeem in the playoffs and MJ, who dominated their era. In another decade this one for instance David and Ewing at their peaks would probably be considered easily the best center in the NBA and maybe only behind Lebron
in the current NBA ...but because of what we expected ...they get the short end of the stick.

2. Shaq-We see the strength, the speed and quickness for a guy that size ...and we expect continual dominance. WE see the clanked FT's and limited jumper and we all assume he did not work on his game enough...but he did. My problem is not that he didnt work on his game but that he did not take care of his body or manage his injuries and or surgeries. No one can dispute that shaq is one of the all-time great Finals performers ...or that he was the most dominant big men of any era but when compared to Duncan, who not only worked on his game but maintained his body and though never blessed with a Wade or Kobe has won the same number of les ...you can see why some (myself included) have issues with Shaq and find him "wanting" in comparison.

Duncan in his prime never had Shaq's speed and athleticism. He also looks "small" in comparison but Duncan makes the most out of what he does have: great footwork, high bball IQ and a committment to defense as much as offense, that I wish Shaq had more of in his game.

The 2000 MVP shaq>>>Duncan but most other years I take Tim, which for Shaq is a shame. Based on talent alone Shaq should be way better than Duncan ...but again that is how expectations work against you.

[Killakobe81]

Last point and sorry to hi-jack the thread ...but I thought the KG/shaq point was interesting:

Lebron. Because Lebron has every physical gift: positionally height, physique, speed, hops and the two MVP's for his amazing regular season play, EXPECTATIONS have been unrealistic for Lebron (especially since that ECF vs. Pistons) to have won a ring by now .. Even though it took MJ time, same for Shaq and many other great NBA talents to win their first le.
Sure Cleveland lost more than Lebron this season, but all of those expecting THAT (last year's Cavs) to win a le, were buying the media hype.
Lebron is one of the most dominating players I have ever seen but Shaq could not win before Kobe and MJ not until Pippen developed. Why should Lebron be any different? Lebron has never had a team-mate the caliber of Kobe, Wade pippen or Shaq. Now he does. If he does not win it THIS year this is the first time that he truly could be deemed a failure. Depth issues or not, he has two team-mates that are legit all-stars, not pseudo ones like Mo williams.

Now, I dont know if he truly did quit in last year's playoffs, or delonte banged his mom or if it was the elbow ...but based on the hype thrown on the heat this year none of those wil be accepted as valid, come may and June.

Im expecting Lebron's best like the 2nd half of sunday's ASG ...and the torch may be offically passed ...we shall see. If not, I will bash him like many do on here but either way I can not wait.