I heard a Spurs fan say that

[Bill_Brasky]

Kobe: 5

tired old bag Duncan: 4

Thats nice & all.

Now go back and get your in' shine box.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I believe both the Spurs and the Lakers would be worse off. However, there is one glaring flaw in this debate which seems to prove this. You don't just replace them with each other and assume what would happen. The only way to do this is if a trade had been made, straight up, Tim for Kobe.

Now, what does this trade mean for these franchises?

For the Spurs, they suddenly lose a lot of size and defensive intensity. True, they have a quick scorer in Kobe, but they can already get that from Parker and Ginobili. Most important is the hit team chemistry takes. (See Boston losing Kendrick Perkins last year for a reminder). No more Duncan is just that, no more Duncan. And his replacement plays a different position; this part seems to also prove how hard it is to determine who is the greater player. I would have been very hard for the Spurs to win as many games as they have since, let alone two les.

For the Lakers, this is also devastating. First Shaq goes, now Kobe? True Tim is a great replacement, but not for both! Kobe was able to score a lot of points simply because no one else could or should be trusted. Now, pressure is on Tim to fill that role, and that isn't his game. Odom isn't a legit second option, so this Lakers team is not going to score many points. This Lakers team will feel beaten when they come onto the court.

Hope you liked my points above.

[joshdaboss]

I believe both the Spurs and the Lakers would be worse off. However, there is one glaring flaw in this debate which seems to prove this. You don't just replace them with each other and assume what would happen. The only way to do this is if a trade had been made, straight up, Tim for Kobe.

Now, what does this trade mean for these franchises?

For the Spurs, they suddenly lose a lot of size and defensive intensity. True, they have a quick scorer in Kobe, but they can already get that from Parker and Ginobili. Most important is the hit team chemistry takes. (See Boston losing Kendrick Perkins last year for a reminder). No more Duncan is just that, no more Duncan. And his replacement plays a different position; this part seems to also prove how hard it is to determine who is the greater player. I would have been very hard for the Spurs to win as many games as they have since, let alone two les.

For the Lakers, this is also devastating. First Shaq goes, now Kobe? True Tim is a great replacement, but not for both! Kobe was able to score a lot of points simply because no one else could or should be trusted. Now, pressure is on Tim to fill that role, and that isn't his game. Odom isn't a legit second option, so this Lakers team is not going to score many points. This Lakers team will feel beaten when they come onto the court.

Hope you liked my points above.

Lakers probably wouldn't win a ring with Tim, but they sure as wouldn't miss the playoffs. With a prime Tim Duncan? ROFL. Missing the playoffs is a joke. They'd just play at a turtle pace to make up for the lack of scoring. They would have 2 good defending big men in Duncan and Brown. Odom is a long and capable defender. Smush Parker is a good athlete that defends. Like I said, they wouldn't be able to score a lot but they'd be able to win games on defense. Kobe brings 0 defensive presence when he has to be the main scorer(AKA when he isn't Shaq's ). Tim dominates both ends, that's the difference.

[Killakobe81]

Ok I'll play just this one time.

If Kobe shares the ball and learns how to play within the system instead of trying to be the savior in spite of the system, the team very well could have done much better.

Kobe's scoring numbers mean little more than Iverson's. Iverson won a few scoring les. Like Iverson, Kobe is a volume shooter and the team has to live with the fact that he's going to shoot even at times when others are open. He's going to keep his team out of sync if that gets him more looks. He likes to win if it means he gets the glory, but he seems to prefer loss over sacrificing the number of shots he takes.

Kobe used those years to pad his scoring. Once he realized he had no real big underneath to get him another ring, he said " it" and just got his.

When you have Shaq ing about not getting touches, you got a problem, especially when Shaq was unstoppable once he got the ball in the paint.

If Kobe finds a way to appease Shaq's need for attention, the Lakers win 5 in a row easily.

No they would not. MJ could not win 5 in a row ...a team led by shaq even with Kobe at his side is not winning 5 in a row. Maybe 5 out of 8 or even 7, maybe.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

No they would not. MJ could not win 5 in a row ...a team led by shaq even with Kobe at his side is not winning 5 in a row. Maybe 5 out of 8 or even 7, maybe.

how do you know that? he took a 2 years off then came back and had another 3 peat. sounds like he could have gone for 5 or 6 in a row.

[ambchang]

Take it for what it's worth. I am taking the two players' respective teams in those periods, and how they did with and without said player.

This is ignoring things like the compe ion, whether the teams were tanking, resting up starters at end of season, etc ....

2005 gave the best indication, as both players missed a decent number of games.

In 2005, Duncan and Kobe both missed 16 games.

The Spurs went 9-7 (or .56) without Duncan, but 50-16 (.76) with him.
The Lakers went 6-10 (or .38) w/o Kobe, but 28-38 (.42) with him.

As you can see, the difference is much greater without Duncan than with him, and it's always said that going from a bad team to a medriocre team is much easier from going from a mediocre team to a good team.

Add in the fact that Rudy Tomjonavich was the Laker coach that year, and he is a one trick pony of running an inside out offense, it is not a total stretch to say that the Lakers would have been better off with Duncan instead of Kobe.

For 06 and 07, both players missed a total of 4 games, and they are pretty meaningless.

[z0sa]

Kobe, Odom and a bunch of no-names: lottery

Duncan, an old-ass DRob and a bunch of no-names: 2003 NBA le

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe, Odom and a bunch of no-names: lottery

Duncan, an old-ass DRob and a bunch of no-names: 2003 NBA le

Bruce Bowen
Manu Ginobili (age 25, NBA rookie, but played years of overseas)
Stephen Jackson
Tony Parker
good 3pt shooters

[z0sa]

BB in 2003: no name
MG in 2003: no name
SJax in 2003: no name who only played because of an injury to Smith
TP in 2003: no name who got benched for speedy claxton

I can't believe you didn't mention old Stevie Kerr, he was one who I was surely expecting in response.

[Deuce Bigalow]

BB in 2003: no name
MG in 2003: no name
SJax in 2003: no name who only played because of an injury to Smith
TP in 2003: no name who got benched for speedy claxton

I can't believe you didn't mention old Stevie Kerr, he was one who I was surely expecting in response.

lol duncan averaged 25/15/5 in the playoffs, its not like he averaged 30+, he didnt do everything
enough with

[z0sa]

let me see if you can find the last player who averaged 24.7PPG/15.4reb/5.3ast/3.3blk or better in a le-winning playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

hows it better than

Jordans 31/6/8, 35/6/6, 35/7/6 in 91-93
31/5/4, 31/8/5, 32/5/4 in 96-98

Shaq's 31/15/3, 30/15/3 in 00-01

Kobe's 30/5/6 and 29/7/6 in 09 and 01

[z0sa]

hows it better than

Jordans 31/6/8, 35/6/6, 35/7/6 in 91-93
31/5/4, 31/8/5, 32/5/4 in 96-98

Shaq's 31/15/3, 30/15/3 in 00-01

Kobe 30/5/6 and 29/7/6 in 09 and 01

At least you're one of the few Lakerfans who agree with the popular consensus that Shaq was by far the most dominant Laker 00-02

Jordan's and Kobe's statlines are comparable to 03 Tim's (Tim beats Kobe soundly though IMHO); Kobe's teammates aren't

[Deuce Bigalow]

At least you're one of the few Lakerfans who agree Shaq was by far the most dominant Laker 00-02

Jordan's and Kobe's statlines are comparable to 03 Tim's (Tim beats Kobe soundly though IMHO); Kobe's teammates aren't

the thing is that stat-wise, thats his only great le run
post his other numbers for the other years

[z0sa]

All that matters in this thread is that you agree that he is much more capable than Kobe at being the best player on a fringe talent team.

[Deuce Bigalow]

All that matters in this thread is that you agree that he is much more capable than Kobe at being the best player on a fringe talent team.

no, i never said that and its not true
duncan has always had a good team around him

and if you replace kobe with duncan, the 05-07 lakers would not be better

[Deuce Bigalow]

1999 Playoffs
23/12/3

2005 Playoffs
24/12/3 (46 FG%)

2007 Playoffs
22/12/3

anyways, those are the other numbers, not really that great

[z0sa]

duncan has always had a good team around him

... like I said before. 2003 Duncan won it ALL with a bunch of no name players while posting sick stats.

2005 Kobe, on the other hand, won nothing while posting some sick stats.

I don't see what else there is to argue. There's even the evidence that Tim would have been much more easy to coach than Kobe (if you need evidence for that, rofl) because of Tomjanovic's style.

[Deuce Bigalow]

... like I said before. 2003 Duncan won it ALL with a bunch of no name players while posting sick stats.

2005 Kobe, on the other hand, won nothing while posting some sick stats.

I don't see what else there is to argue.

wait did you just mean that both supporting casts were even close to as good

[z0sa]

Yeah, i know it's pretty sad that Kobe had Odom and couldn't make the playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

kobe missed 16 games, 2nd best player odom missed 18 games
the rest was as horrible as you can get

[z0sa]

... and when they were fine and healthy, they could barely make the first round.

Damn, Kobe alone only pulled the first round. It's no wonder some people think he's overrated.

[Deuce Bigalow]

... and when they were fine and healthy, they could barely make the first round. Not a huge difference.

lol are you a dumb*ss?
tell me the players 3-15, list them

[Deuce Bigalow]

If you replace Kobe with Duncan on those 2005-07 Lakers that they would get the 4th seed and make it out of the first round

stats from that season fromm both players

2004-05
Kobe - 27.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 6.0 APG
Duncan - 20.3 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 2.7 APG

2005-06
Kobe - 35.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG
Duncan - 18.6 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.2 APG

2006-07
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.4 APG
Duncan - 20.0 PPG, 10.6 PPG, 3.4 APG

for those 3 years
steals, kobe averaged 1.5, Duncan 0.8
blocks, Kobe averaged 0.6, Duncan 2.3

so If you replaced Kobe with Duncan, would the Lakers be better?

this is the OP, lol duncan fans

[z0sa]

3-15: no names in 2005
same as Tim's 3-15, disregarding old Kerr and injured, old SS.