My personal Top 10 with no players I haven't seen. And this list is not based on just stats, or rings only ...but rings matter to me a quite a bit.
1. MJ (thirsty for shots like Kobe, but more efficient was really ahead of his time)
2. Magic (does a lot of what Lebron does wothout the athletic gifts)
3. Kobe (MJ lite which is not an insult to either guy, but original is always better)
4. Duncan (edges Shaq and Hakeem due to consistency over Shaq and rings over Dream)
5. Shaq (Give him the nod over Dream because of doiminance in early 2000's)
6. Hakeem (hate to put him this low at his best, only Shaq/MJ were more dominant)
7. Bird (a few years back I had him 3rd but the guys ahead save Magic are wayyy better defenders, Magic has more rings and won the key head2head matchups)
8. Kareem (I only saw the tail end of 1 of his MVP years and 1 finals MVP
9. Isiah (gets lost in the shuffle quite a bit but the guy has a case as a top 2 or 3 PG)
10. Moses Malone (guy was a beast on the boards and a force on the block)
All-time no stipulations but ranking players I havent seen, is something I abhor ...but my best guess with looking at where their legacy will leave them ...
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Russell, Malone, Lebron (eventually) all have claims to this le ...
tough to say for sure since Kobe, Duncan and Lebron especially are still securing their legacy ...
It's funny how people don't recognize how dominant Bird was in his prime
Just not quite great enough to win two mvps like Duncan.
Some people here weren't around or aware of what was going on in the NBA during Bird's prime. For me, it's kind of like that with Hakeem. I was either not born yet, or not old enough to know what was going on for the first 8-9 years of his career.
Yet those people still put players like Russell and Wilt ahead of Bird when their parents probably struggle to remember either one of those two
1)Jordan
2) Magic
3) Abdul-Jabbar
4) Shaq
5) Bird
6) Wilt
7) Olajuwon
8) Duncan
9) J. Erving
10) Bryant/ Russell/ O Robinson
Last edited by Dr Cox; 02-13-2012 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Changing it up some.
Is this a serious point? If Duncan's career spanned from the mid 80s to the late 90s, during the Magic/Bird/Jordan years, how many League MVPs do you honestly think Duncan wins?
Very true. Being around to have followed the game during 70's, 80's and early 90's counts for a lot. Years from now I think people might look at MVP's, rings and stats to make a Kobe vs. MJ comparison without really knowing all the nonsense Kobe put his teams through just to have MJ-like numbers. Truth be told, he would have more rings than MJ if he hadn't spent his career trying to be MJ.Yet those people still put players like Russell and Wilt ahead of Bird when their parents probably struggle to remember either one of those two
He was an amazing shooter. And his rebounding and passing for the position was pretty impressive as well. But this list is the best of the best and the guys above him have more rings and impacted the defensive end. also Back injuries pretty much robbed him of a stong finish to his career. From 1980 1986 Bird was the best player of the decade and had one of the more dominant 6 years of any player. But due to back injuries and Magic surpassing him 5 rings to 3 he lost POTD honors and can not finish as high on the list as others who prime (Magic, Kareem, shaq, duncan) whose primes lasted longer ...
How many rings do you think Hakeem wins if Michael Jordan never plays baseball?
What kind of teammates would he have had? What type of offense would they have run? You can't really make this argument. You can only judge the players on what they accomplished during the time they actually played.
It's like asking how many les and MVP's Robinson would have won had Hakeem not been there.
Since Dave got one, I'd say at least one, imo.
I've looked up before where Hakeem finished in MVP voting over the course of his career. If he had finished 4th every year behind those guys, there might be an argument to him getting hosed.
My guess is probably zero, but maybe still one. Not sure. Put Duncan's career in the same years as Hakeem's, how many rings does Tim win?
People tend to underestimate Bird's defensive impact, tbh.
You can play hypothetical questions all day and in the end they are irrelevant.
Tbh.
Both Magic and Bird were very good help defenders, but comapring their defense to Kareem and Mj's for example leaves them both lacking.
Look Bird was #3 on my list not very long ago and tbh I probably should keep him ahead of the Hakeem, Duncan shaq trio. and if he could of extended hi sprime just a little more, even with just the 3 rings he has I probably would of. His prime is arguably better than any of the 3 or Kobe's ...
With those teams of Duncan/Manu/Parker/Bowen? At least 1, if not more. Surely you're not saying Dennis Rodman can play defense on Tim Duncan? Neither Bowen(Jordan) or Manu(Pippen) would be overmatched defensively like that. Especially when there is a prime Duncan protecting the rim.
David won his League MVP when he had become a more prolific scorer, averaging close to 30 points a game. Perhaps Duncan is a more prolific scorer in that era. I don't think it's certain in any way he'd win even 1 MVP in that era. Possible, but my post was in response to your 2>1 MVP post. Hakeem had several seasons that would have been worthy of MVP consideration in an era of not only multiple HOFers but guys who are talked about in the discussion of top 10-15 players of all time putting up ridiculous seasons. Not just Jordan, Magic, and Bird. Barkley, Karl Malone, even Robinson. I don't think you plug Duncan in that era and automatically assume he has the same or similar success, individually or championship wise.
And sure it's all hypothetical and opinion. That's what the vast majority of discussions on these boards are.
Duncan would've averaged 5+ blocks in that era, he probably still would've won an MVP if Robinson was able to and most likely a DPOY too
That's adding a different wrinkle to the argument. I don't know if I agree with that anyway, but that's not where I was going with the discussion. Replace Hakeem with Duncan on all those Rockets teams, with the same teammates, how many rings does Duncan win in those years with those casts of teammates?
Something like that is much too hard to answer. It is still hard to answer when you take his teams that you've seen him play with and ask the question, but nearly impossible to answer what he would do with the same cast. What I do know is, Tim Duncan has taken more players to NBA championships than Michael Jordan.
But the discussion was a comparison of individual players. What you were getting at is a comparison of championship teams, and that's a different discussion. The topic got into a debate between Duncan and Hakeem. Who was the better player, not whose championship team was better or how the teammates of each match up against other championship teams.
Sure it might be a tough question to answer. A lot of this is conjecture and based on pure opinionated speculation. But I'm sure you do have an opinion on it.
What I do know is that Tim Duncan is a better player than Hakeem Olajuwon. Way more consistent. If not for a few bad luck plays, Duncan could easily have 6 rings right now.
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