Rockets: Were we wrong about Harden?

[thunderfan]

You think Kevin no defense Martin and some rookie scrub is "untouchable by any team"? Classic Lakaluva takes..

Potentially. Also notice the words "in many aspects". I'm referring to length, speed, and athleticism combined. Notice I didn't say it was an unbeatable lineup.

[Latarian Milton]

ya think Irving stats inflated fo same reason or he legit?

he legit but would u trade som yo franchise playa say DH fo him? he gon b 15+6 guy playin' on a playoff team as da 3-4th option imho

[Pelicans78]

Thanking the basketball gods they got Harden instead of Gordon.

Any team that drafts Austin Rivers with a top 10 pick deserves to be stuck with Gordon's salary.

[Pelicans78]

I don't know. I won't disagree with your thinking there. Maynor would be the "real PG" you speak of. In terms of the 5 guys on the floor at once the other guy mentioned...rewind back to the Finals vs Miami. Honestly..I'll take RW, Martin, KD, PJ3, and Ibaka ANYDAY against Miami over what Brooks threw out there last year... RW, Harden, KD, Ibaka, Perk. Look, with the 5 I mentioned...we'll skip KD and RW...we know them. Beyond that, you truly have 3 guys next to KD and RW that are potentially pretty legit 15-18ppg scorers. Yes, Ibaka too. There's a huge amount of flexibility in OKC's lineups. You can even put Maynor/Jackson at 1, RW to 2, Jones 3, KD 4, Ibaka 5. That lineup right there is absolutely untouchable by any team in the NBA in many aspects. OKC has work to do and none of this is given, I'm just simply saying I like the potential that exists with this roster, even with Harden gone.

Jones is overrated, especially by you. His skills aren't that great and he won't be anything more than a decent player. His best position is a stretch PF because wing players in this league will crap over his perimeter skills. Also, neither Jones or Martin will defend well, especially against strong perimeter skills and Martin doesn't play off the ball nearly as well as Harden. No way the lineup you mention does any better than last year's mainly because Martin and Jones can't touch what Harden does on the floor.

[Latarian Milton]

12 assists in one of first games with team after barely having any practice time. Legit playmaker. Tbh, I'm not sure how you think he isn't one. How much have you see him play? He's a better playmaker and passer than Westbrook.

His assists were low before because Durant and Westbrook hog the lion's share of OKC's possessions. If you look at OKC's team stats (looking at FGAs, FTAs, and turnovers), Durant and Westbrook used up half of OKC's offensive possessions last year. It's literally right around the 50% mark.


Harden did not have much chance to get assists and points because Durant and Westbrook eat up all their possessions. He had little chance to shine. In other words, he was pretty much held back by those two, not "pumped up" for playing with them. I've watched enough OKC games to know Harden's legit, and imo he was better than Westbrook (factoring both ends of the floor in).

The only stat of Harden's that's gonna go down is gonna be his scoring efficiency since it was through the roof last year. His PPG and APG are gonna go way up since he's the star of the Rockets and will get a lot more touches than he did with the spirit crushing presence of Westbrook and Durant hogging the ball half the time.

the sun shines on a dog's ass once in a while. he might got the potential to be real good but only time will tell, and wasn't it also the first game for him where he didn't play like an ass since may? he might be a better passer than westchuck but that ain't sayin' much imho.

its for sure that his stats will grow to a significant extent when he takes the ball-hogging role on a ty team and his efficiency will go down supposedly, but it ain't like he has ever had good efficiency when playin in OKC. was against spurs n Heat last season and was even tier in the olympics

harden might be a better team player than westchuck but he doesn't possess nothing like the explosive drives and the accurate monkey hooks that westchuck has, so you've rarely seen teams double teaming the beard the way they do durant and westchuck. dude got all the basic skills and can shoot consistently from the field but there's nothing special with him that makes him a superstar imho

[Latarian Milton]

Jones is overrated, especially by you. His skills aren't that great and he won't be anything more than a decent player. His best position is a stretch PF because wing players in this league will crap over his perimeter skills. Also, neither Jones or Martin will defend well, especially against strong perimeter skills and Martin doesn't play off the ball nearly as well as Harden. No way the lineup you mention does any better than last year's mainly because Martin and Jones can't touch what Harden does on the floor.

beard nig might be a bit better than kevin mrtin but he wanted a ing max which the small-marketed OKC couldn't afford to give him. the OKC had no choice but to let him go now rather than let him walk free come the end of the season imho, though it would be an easy choice between fillet and steak despite the salary issue

[Kidd K]

the sun shines on a dog's ass once in a while. he might got the potential to be real good but only time will tell, and wasn't it also the first game for him where he didn't play like an ass since may? he might be a better passer than westchuck but that ain't sayin' much imho.

its for sure that his stats will grow to a significant extent when he takes the ball-hogging role on a ty team and his efficiency will go down supposedly, but it ain't like he has ever had good efficiency when playin in OKC. was against spurs n Heat last season and was even tier in the olympics

harden might be a better team player than westchuck but he doesn't possess nothing like the explosive drives and the accurate monkey hooks that westchuck has, so you've rarely seen teams double teaming the beard the way they do durant and westchuck. dude got all the basic skills and can shoot consistently from the field but there's nothing special with him that makes him a superstar imho

Sun shining comment doesn't apply since he's already been good before this year. isn't new. He was already heralded as a top 5 SG in the NBA. Good games aren't new to Harden.

"First good game since May" is also a stupid comment that doesn't apply since it's the first game of the season, and his last game of the playoffs wasn't good. No there's going to be a big gap in between good games. -_- What's even your point there? Supposed to be some kind of zinger or something?

True, being a better passer than WB isn't saying much. But he's an elite playmaker at his position regardless. Can you name 5 better playmaking SGs? Like, without argument better. I can only think of one off the top of my head (Ginobili). Harden's top 5 at the SG position in that talent imo.

Rockets weren't that bad last year. About .500.

Harden wasn't efficient with OKC? . . .shouldn't you have even looked up the guy's stats before saying that? He was second in the NBA in eFG% and TS% last year behind only Chandler in both categories. In other words, the most efficient scorer in the NBA besides Chandler who's most shots were just alley oop dunks.

Harden was also 3rd in the NBA in offensive efficiency, behind only Chandler and Chris Paul. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Harden wasn't efficient from.

You don't need to be a monkeyballer to score and win games. I also didn't see many teams double teaming Westbrook tbh. They usually single cover him and if anything try to double Durant.

The stat you really need to be looking at is USG% for Westbrook and Durant, then it will make more sense why Harden's PPG and APG wasn't that high. Those two are top 5 in ball hogging in the NBA. And on the same team, who eat up those perimeter possessions. Harden was held back because of those ball hoggers. He's going to shine in Houston after getting more possessions, while Durant/Westbrook's efficiency's going to go down. Even C Webb and Kenny Smith were saying the same on TNT tonight that I been saying the last 2 days.

[Indazone]

lol @Latarian blowing crack up his own ass trying to dis Harden's 37 pt game.

[DMC]

At least Houston will be a fun team to watch, I think.

[Malik Hairston]

another stupid thread by OP, tbh..

Most people with any basketball knowledge were intelligent enough to recognize Harden's impact, even prior to his massive season opening performance..only idiots that are brainwashed by the media and ty analysts(Barkley, Reggie, etc) thought otherwise..

[da_suns_fan]

Bunch of butthurt spur fans over the WCF tbh. The guy can slash, shoot, and create. This is completely different than Joe Johnson aka 1-on-1 Joe or any other dumb comparison that has been made. He doesnt have the athleticism of a prime Kobe/Wade but hes as smooth and crafty as they come, probably my favorite non-spur player tbh. Within a year or two as he improves and as the chucker+Wade decline this will be the best SG in the game imo.

Yep.

I watched Joe Johnson in his prime...not even close to Harden.

[da_suns_fan]

the sun shines on a dog's ass once in a while. he might got the potential to be real good but only time will tell, and wasn't it also the first game for him where he didn't play like an ass since may? he might be a better passer than westchuck but that ain't sayin' much imho.

its for sure that his stats will grow to a significant extent when he takes the ball-hogging role on a ty team and his efficiency will go down supposedly, but it ain't like he has ever had good efficiency when playin in OKC.

Probably THE MOST ignorant post Ive ever seen on ST. You must be monos in disguise.

[Spursfan092120]

when he does that a few times against good defenders, then we doubters wrong. need good sample sizes

You do know he played last year right? It's not like dude's a rookie..he's been doing this ...and you still need to learn english.

[Kidd K]

Probably THE MOST ignorant post Ive ever seen on ST. You must be monos in disguise.

I can see his next posts now:

It ain't like MJ was ever that clutch

It ain't like Bill Russell ever won a le

It ain't like Kareem ever scored that many points

[ImDaNuts]

Rockets come back down to earth tomorrow vs Atlanta.

[purplengold]

You do know he played last year right? It's not like dude's a rookie..he's been doing this ...and you still need to learn english.

im sayin bout him bein franchise player, he didn't show that in okc. that what ima sayin bout sample size, need ta see him fill da box against legit defense fo few dozen games as #1 at least.

[purplengold]

he legit but would u trade som yo franchise playa say DH fo him? he gon b 15+6 guy playin' on a playoff team as da 3-4th option imho

nah not Dwight dat be dumb as . if he play 22/8 like I think gonna, he worth somebody like curry, wall or even tyreke. That just talkin bout him durin his 3rd season

[JohnnyMax]

harden is better than wall, tyreke, curry

hes a notch below westbrook, rose, durant

[m>s]

Sun shining comment doesn't apply since he's already been good before this year. isn't new. He was already heralded as a top 5 SG in the NBA. Good games aren't new to Harden.

"First good game since May" is also a stupid comment that doesn't apply since it's the first game of the season, and his last game of the playoffs wasn't good. No there's going to be a big gap in between good games. -_- What's even your point there? Supposed to be some kind of zinger or something?

True, being a better passer than WB isn't saying much. But he's an elite playmaker at his position regardless. Can you name 5 better playmaking SGs? Like, without argument better. I can only think of one off the top of my head (Ginobili). Harden's top 5 at the SG position in that talent imo.

Rockets weren't that bad last year. About .500.

Harden wasn't efficient with OKC? . . .shouldn't you have even looked up the guy's stats before saying that? He was second in the NBA in eFG% and TS% last year behind only Chandler in both categories. In other words, the most efficient scorer in the NBA besides Chandler who's most shots were just alley oop dunks.

Harden was also 3rd in the NBA in offensive efficiency, behind only Chandler and Chris Paul. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Harden wasn't efficient from.

You don't need to be a monkeyballer to score and win games. I also didn't see many teams double teaming Westbrook tbh. They usually single cover him and if anything try to double Durant.

The stat you really need to be looking at is USG% for Westbrook and Durant, then it will make more sense why Harden's PPG and APG wasn't that high. Those two are top 5 in ball hogging in the NBA. And on the same team, who eat up those perimeter possessions. Harden was held back because of those ball hoggers. He's going to shine in Houston after getting more possessions, while Durant/Westbrook's efficiency's going to go down. Even C Webb and Kenny Smith were saying the same on TNT tonight that I been saying the last 2 days.

FG% doesn't tell the whole truth when he either played off the bench against ty defense or played alongside durant/westchuck during crunch minutes where durant drew 70% of the opposing team's defensive attention and westchuck took the rest 30%. beard nig played good against pistons the other night, which didn't mean though when the pistons haven't played any good D since ben wallace gone. having one good game against a ty team doesn't mean he's already the rockets' new face whatsoever, only time will tell if he's a real elite that had been hindered in OKC due to the presences of durant and westchuck or he's just another flop that only eats $$$

[FuzzyLumpkins]

FG% doesn't tell the whole truth when he either played off the bench against ty defense or played alongside durant/westchuck during crunch minutes where durant drew 70% of the opposing team's defensive attention and westchuck took the rest 30%. beard nig played good against pistons the other night, which didn't mean though when the pistons haven't played any good D since ben wallace gone. having one good game against a ty team doesn't mean he's already the rockets' new face whatsoever, only time will tell if he's a real elite that had been hindered in OKC due to the presences of durant and westchuck or he's just another flop that only eats $$$

Straight up ignorance about a division rival. With the 2nd unit and down the stretch Harden took the ball instead of the chucker and played the facilitator most possessions. Making up percentages is fun though!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

harden is better than wall, tyreke, curry

hes a notch below westbrook, rose, durant

This is fair mostly but in an offensive league I put him ahead of the chucker. The chucker is not to be grouped with Durantula and Rose at the very least.

[Kidd K]

FG% doesn't tell the whole truth when he either played off the bench against ty defense or played alongside durant/westchuck during crunch minutes where durant drew 70% of the opposing team's defensive attention and westchuck took the rest 30%. beard nig played good against pistons the other night, which didn't mean though when the pistons haven't played any good D since ben wallace gone. having one good game against a ty team doesn't mean he's already the rockets' new face whatsoever, only time will tell if he's a real elite that had been hindered in OKC due to the presences of durant and westchuck or he's just another flop that only eats $$$

I didn't use the FG% stat. I used eFG% and TS%.

Westbrook doesn't draw double teams like you guys are claiming. I'm guessing that's just an assumption, because I've actually been watching OKC, and I rarely see him get doubled unless you're calling help D' in the paint a double team (which it isn't). Durant gets doubled, Westbrook very rarely does.

Speaking of which, you don't seem to be taking a particular stance on why Harden was so efficient. You're claiming he had good efficiency because he played off the bench then also because he plays with both WB and Durant. Yet, he doesn't do both at once. Which is it? It just sounds like one big excuse for his stats. When he's coming off the bench, all the defense is focused on him since he's the best player. Yet, you're trying to excuse that away by saying Durant and WB play on the same team. You can't stand on both sides of the fence at once.

Did anyone else on the Thunder shoot as well as Harden while coming off the bench or playing with them? The answer would be no. How about, did any other guards shoot that well playing with Kobe and Gasol and Bynum? Or LBJ, Wade, and Bosh? Or any other teams with multiple good players? Whether they came off the bench or not? The answer is "no" on all counts.

It goes both ways too. Westbrook and Durant saw increased efficiency because of Harden's presence. I guarantee OKC will drop in their offensive rating this year. They will not be #1 most of the season like they were last year (finished #2). I doubt they will be top 3. Possibly not even top 5. That's even with adding Kevin Martin. The loss of Harden will be huge, because Harden's offensive efficiency was among the league's best. He was 3rd in the NBA. You know where Durant and Westbrook were? Not even top 20. Westbrook in particular was way off of the top 20.

OKC will not finish higher than the 3 seed and will lose in the 2nd round. Book it. And it will be a direct result of trading off Harden.

[Kai]

He's a beast.

[purplengold]

harden is better than wall, tyreke, curry

hes a notch below westbrook, rose, durant

was talkin bout who'd I trade fo Irving

[Pelicans78]

harden is better than wall, tyreke, curry

hes a notch below westbrook, rose, durant

Harden is better than Westbrook.