The thing is the whole second unit feels dysfunctional, I think inserting a big target like Baynes could really help everyone, especially a pass first player like Manu. And play Cojo next to him, to surround him with solid defenders.
yes, except both Manu + Jackson are struggling at pretty much every other aspect of the game. If you see a player suck at most every aspect you can bet the main issue is either health or mental.
I still believe both Jax and Manu will somehow find a stride in the playoffs. We can only hope or we go no further than round 2.
I looked too, about a week ago. While the averages (what you posted) look ok, the game-to-game logs aren't as pretty.
Nov 19 vs Clippers: 3-11
Nov 21 vs Boston: 2-8
Nov 23 vs Indiana: 7-18
Nov 25 vs Toronto: 5-15
Dec 1 vs Memphis: 4-15
Dec 5 vs Bucks: 3-10
...and so on. His shooting specifically has been very up and down all season long. His better percentages are actually on games where he limited his shots.
But Manu individually has no influence over the +/- when he's not on the floor (the +13.7). If Tim or Tony have a great night or an off night, what does Manu watching from the bench have to do with that?
Take a look at top 5-man units:
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS2.HTM
Manu is on 10 out of the 20, from those 10, 3 have a negative plus/minus and 7 have a positive plus/minus.
But what's striking about this team, is the top lineup. They cleanup the floor with anybody, and *any* other lineup struggles, comparatively speaking. (top lineup is +123, second best is +35).
Bottom line is that Manu needs to play better, and the bench overall need to improve. But looking at the actual numbers, this team is at it's best when you play Parker-Green-Leonard-Splitter-Duncan for as long as you can. And so getting Tony back in rhythm and up to his usual minutes right now is imperative.
How many times can you fill a flat tire that has a puncture and think it's going to be okay? Manu is flat, we keep giving him minutes and touches hoping it'll inflate his confidence and he'll find his shot but it's not working. His 3 point percentage is like 30% from after the all star break and his fg% isn't much better. He turns the ball over frequently because he's pushing too much and his defense is ho hum. He's not attacking the basket and when he does he's not looking to finish but draw contact which doesn't happen because he's not hitting any shots.
One of the downsides to having a big international star player like ginobili.
you have to deal with his biased fans, who are incapable of dealing with his performance rationally or objectively.
there's no question that elnono wouldn't be going to this lengths to try and 'splain away a performance from someone else on the team who just happened to hail from a different hemisphere.
rockets have this problem too.
For those of you who said that Manu will play much better or even like his old self, would you bet on him for that if you were in Vegas?
I know it's impossible to quantify "playing better", just use this as an analogy. Like I will bet on Tony to play like a Top 10 player during playoffs, but I might not dare bet on him playing like a top 5 players, which he is during regular season. This is called educated guess. You can't just follow the "He is Manu Ginobili" or "anything is possible" logic.
More importantly, the Spurs have other pieces (like Kawhi and Splitter) who can take more responsibilities. So Manu may or may not get back to himself --- every Spurs fan hopes he can --- but the Spurs team should not bank their season on that. They have a MVP candidate (although with LeBron, everyone else's chance is remote), a top 10 player, several young and coming pieces, and a long-term system. Yes, the Heat is the heavy favorite; yes, the Thunder and the Nuggets are looking food too, but the Spurs still have a fighting chance which should be treasured.
I've made no excuses for Ginobili's poor play. I've said throughout this thread he's played like .
How about you learn to read before you tell somebody else to think rationally?
ElNono hitting rock bottom
I'm even saying his shooting sucked for almost the entire season and peeps thinks I'm still defending him
Can't compare the inferior Summer Olympics with the NBA.
Gotta be mental at this point, he takes too many step back 3s to my liking and needs to drive more.
Oh well, whatever keeps him healthy in the playoffs I suppose.
So are we sure that starting Splitter was the right idea? Sure, the Spurs' defense is improved, but the bench has been down-right anemic. Maybe Bonner/Splitter as the bench duo would help fix a few issues. I can't say that I really like the big rotation as it stands now.
Splitter and Duncan will get tons of minutes in the playoffs so its good to get him used to playing with the first team and develop that chemistry. The second unit is just there to give players rest and protect a lead, hopefully the bench learns how to score in there short rotation.
I believe Splitter + Duncan are the most productively efficient 2 bigmen combination in the league
I think bench production is going to be critical to the team's playoff chances. It's not something to overlook because they won't play as much as they do now.
Agree with this, but that's looking at it in a vacuum. I don't know if the team flows a well in it's present form. Splitter and Duncan starting has been fine for them, but it's still really messed up the rotation.
I'm not a fan of that excuse. If you look at the aggregate plus-minus stats for everyone on the team, it suggests that Manu may be making the other bench players worse, and not the other way around. Also, Ginobili's been playing big minutes with the starters recently.
Pop robbed us from seeing that for two seasons.
In this 30 games game stretch, he had:
- 6 games shooting .300 or below. (20% of the games)
- 9 games shooting .350 or below. (30% of the games)
- 10 games shooting .400 or below. (33.3% of the dames)
Now, if you compare to Ginobili best regular season (07-08, 73 games). In 07-08, he had:
- 12 games shooting .300 or below. (16.4% of the games)
- 17 games shooting .350 or below. (23.3% of the games)
- 26 games shooting .400 or below. (35.6% of the games)
The up and down shooting isn't that different that was Manu did in his prime.
Manu is playing some minutes with Tim and Tony so when they are doing well, it helps his +/- but it's sure that as a bench player it helps him less than for a player like Green. Now, you can say other bench players struggling hurt Manu's +/- but you can also say that playing against bench players, that are weaker should help his numbers.
Now, there is a stat that show that bench struggles is mostly because of Ginobili's poor play:
In the stretch of 30 Manu's good games identified before, Manu is +200 (+12.7 points per 48 minutes).
In the other games with Manu (27 games), Manu is +26 (+2.1 points per 48 minutes).
These are full seasons stats. Manu +/- numbers on the season are fine because of his 30 good games stretch.
All I got to say is everyone stop complaining we all know hes not playing up to his potential but hes HEALTHY be happy
I don't know about others, but to me, I rarely criticize Manu himself for his play -- sans the double team on Al Jefferson which I don't think it's related to aged body or legs at all -- I only want Pop to see that and rely less on Manu.
Now you made me go carve up the numbers.
And you're right. BTW, what I meant by consistency is run of games where he scored 'well' (say .400 or better)
In 07-08 he had 5 streaks of 4+ games where he shot .400 or better. This season, despite the suckitude, he already has 4. Surprisingly enough, the last one was from March 1st to March 8th (which included the Chicago game, which he played fairly well).
Obviously, the difference is that what you listed is supposed to be his worst for 07-08 vs his supposed best for this season.
Hmm, while Manu playing better obviously will affect his plus/minus, I don't understand how you connect that to 'the bench struggling'.
And the reason is that Manu has actually played the most of his minutes with starters.
w/ Tim and Tony (474:59)
w/ Diaw-Parker (327:12)
w/ Diaw-Splitter (308:53)
w/ Duncan-Leonard (289:15)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../lineups/2013/
There's actually not one single top-10 (minutes) 5-man lineup he's been on that doesn't include at least one starter. (this is actually easier to see on the 3-man lineups listing)
He wasn't really exceptional in those 30 games, merely pedestrian compared to his actual best.
Well, it has a lot to do with most of bench players being in and out of the rotation.
For example, 11 of the 12 most used 5-men lineups with Manu have Parker in it while Manu has played 48.7% of his minutes paired with Parker. It could be easily explained when you realize that the backup PG spot has been shared between Neal, Mills, De Colo, Joseph and Manu himself.
One of Manu's task is to carry the bench when Parker and Duncan are resting at the juncture of the first and second quarters and at the juncture of the third and fourth quarters. He was usually damn great at it but it hasn't been the case since the hamstring injury. It's obviously not his only. For reference, he is playing 37% of his minutes without both Tim and Tony on the court.
Manu: "I'm too old for this "
the sad thing is, he really believes this.
no one wants to see ginobili do more or play better than me, believe me. he's one of my favorite players on the team and in the entire NBA.
he's just getting old, but can't mentally accept it. so someone else will have to make that call for his sake.
it's not like there aren't glorious precedents - (jordan)
There was one postive out of the Mnau's last game. As Timvp pointed out in the grades thread, he minimised his mistakes playing with-in himself. Compared to how he's been the last few weeks, the helter skelter Manu toned it down and didn't press. A step in the right drection that has nothing to do with Age or decline. He needs to stick to it until the shooting and confidence comes back.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
