Ginobili foolish 3 again

[ElNono]

Can't believe I haven't heard a single mention of this publicly. This is why the Heat would have been in position to tie or hit a game winner, if not for Parker's miraculous shot. The game should have been over after Green's back breaking three and his ridiculous, hero shot, damn near cost them again.

uh? Green fouling a 3 point shooter (who actually clanked the shot, luckily) was the *sole* reason the Heat got a shot at the end of the game.

Like most intelligent posters have pointed out here, it was a clean look looking for a dagger, and if it goes down we have 20 threads about super manu instead of this garbage.

We had a 5 point lead when he took it and there was 1:36 to go in the game. Making it an 8 point game at that point just closes out the game.

[TD 21]

uh? Green fouling a 3 point shooter (who actually clanked the shot, luckily) was the *sole* reason the Heat got a shot at the end of the game.

Like most intelligent posters have pointed out here, it was a clean look looking for a dagger, and if it goes down we have 20 threads about super manu instead of this garbage.

We had a 5 point lead when he took it and there was 1:36 to go in the game. Making it an 8 point game at that point just closes out the game.

Actually, the two in conjunction were responsible for it. But it wasn't a "clean look" at all. I believe it was Miller, who's 6-8, that was contesting it and it was from way beyond the arc, with more than enough time that a desperation heave wasn't necessary. Whether it went down or not is largely irrelevant. The reality is, it was a terrible, selfish shot and it contributed to damn near costing them the biggest game they've played in 8 years.

If you had an ounce of objectivity in you, you wouldn't argue otherwise.

[DarrinS]

Meh, if he makes it, this thread doesn't exist. We aren't beating the Heat without him, so F-off with the hate already.

[ElNono]

Actually, the two in conjunction were responsible for it. But it wasn't a "clean look" at all. I believe it was Miller, who's 6-8, that was contesting it and it was from way beyond the arc, with more than enough time that a desperation heave wasn't necessary. Whether it went down or not is largely irrelevant. The reality is, it was a terrible, selfish shot and it contributed to damn near costing them the biggest game they've played in 8 years.

If you had an ounce of objectivity in you, you wouldn't argue otherwise.

I've watched the play many times... here, let's put some images to it so we don't have to 'recall' anything...

- Pop calls the play, Tony looking at him, start of the possession:


- Tim is trailing, but catches up and starts directing traffic:


The play is a Tim/Tony pick and roll, with Green being the designated shooter in the weak-side corner.
- Green sets a pick on Tim to get Allen on the move and closer to the middle:


- Then Tim runs the pick & roll with Tony (with Bosh showing, as Miami normally defends this):


- The result is Tim in the middle. But Green hasn't gotten to his spot yet, and Kawhi is covered by Lebron.


- Tim waits a bit and picks up his dribble when the defense collapses. Green is asking for the ball, but Allen is in the way:


- So Tim throws an awful pass back out, to Manu who has to jump to get actual control of the ball (Manu actually fakes a pass to Green at that point, but doesn't release because he sees Allen closing):


- By the time Manu has the ball, the entire Miami defense has reset, everyone is in place and the play is effectively broken:


- When Manu decides to shoot, everyone is covered and looking at Manu, nobody is asking for the ball, Tim isn't coming to set a screen and Miller is actually giving him plenty of room to take the shot:


- Manu set his feet and shoots:


In short:
- The actual play called was broken
- Miller was giving Manu ample room for a clean shot
- There were only 11 secs on the clock with the entire Miami D in place, no mismatches
- Manu took a fairly good shot, it was certainaly far from a "desperation heave"
- He took it, at most, 3 feet away from the 3pt line. Makeable shot.

Normally, the barometer to know if it was a bad shot or not, is simply by just looking at Pop's reaction. He didn't even flinch after that shot.

Now that we dispelled the myths, maybe we can put this to rest.

Oh, and give Miami credit. They defended that as well as you could possibly can.

[StoneBuddha]

I love Manu but taking a shot 2.5 feet behind the 3 point line with 11 seconds left on the shot clock is definitely a bad shot. It's saying something about our high expectations about Manu and our loyalty to him that some are arguing that wasn't a bad shot.

I'm just happy for the win though.

[ElNono]

I'm not knocking on people that think it's a bad shot, tbh... that's entirely opinion based. What is completely asinine is to say the shot was "why the Heat would have been in position to tie or hit a game winner"...

The Spurs did a lot of ty things through the first three quarters to focus on one shot. Conversely, they did a lot of good stuff in the 4th to win the game.

[SpurPadre]

As others have mentioned, the shot clock was winding down and it was a broken play. And I'd rather have a future hall of famer who can shoot the three make that attempt than Neal's constantly ill-advised shot selection.

[mabrignani]

yes this was the main screw up of the game, that play led to a transition 3pt shot by ray allen in which he was fouled

[Sean Cagney]

Actually I think that Parkers hail mary was much worse than this, he was lucky it went in, but he dribbled for 24 seconds without purpose...

Parker had to put that up and he was trapped by Lebron, it was in no way shape or form worse than a damn 30 foot 3pt jumper that HAD NO CHANCE in of going in. LOL Much worse, just because you are argie doesn't mean you can pull that crap saying Parkers was much worse when it went in and Manus went clank badly.

yes this was the main screw up of the game, that play led to a transition 3pt shot by ray allen in which he was fouled

It seems that when Manu does some crap like that towards the end something happens on the other end that makes you shake your head even worse and make you say what a damn sequence and damnit ...... All in one.

In short:
- The actual play called was broken
- Miller was giving Manu ample room for a clean shot
- There were only 11 secs on the clock with the entire Miami D in place, no mismatches
- Manu took a fairly good shot, it was certainaly far from a "desperation heave"
- He took it, at most, 3 feet away from the 3pt line. Makeable shot.

Normally, the barometer to know if it was a bad shot or not, is simply by just looking at Pop's reaction. He didn't even flinch after that shot.

Now that we dispelled the myths, maybe we can put this to rest.

Oh, and give Miami credit. They defended that as well as you could possibly can.

There was 11 seconds left not one or two for Gods sakes! D set or not you can get a better than that SO CALLED GOOD shot you said, that was a shot that had no chance in of going in once he launched it, Manu this year doesn't make that shot. This was a makeable shot I guess but you could have gotten alot better or tried to drive in and get fouled atleast? That Manu is gone though so we have to settle with jump shooting Manu alot late in games and ill advised threes that hardly ever go in. He made on this postseason I remember really that when he launched it I was like make it pleaseeeeeeee! Game one Warriors. Make it please is what we have been reduced to now, when he launches it we pray it goes in! You know it and I know it. This was not a good shot with 11 seconds left on the shot, not even close.

As others have mentioned, the shot clock was winding down and it was a broken play. And I'd rather have a future hall of famer who can shoot the three make that attempt than Neal's constantly ill-advised shot selection.

There was 11 seconds left on the shot clock, not one or two! 11 is almost half of the 24 second shot, thats winding down?

[DOS CHAINZ]

12 secs is enough time to call for an iso & parker takes wade away from the ball & leave Manu 1 on 1 with room against Miller & his fked up back

[Agloco]

Manu needed to recognize that Miller was still on him, and as such he had the slowest defender on the court in between him and the cup. With eleven seconds on the shot clock he needed to initiate one of his classic breakneck drives to the hoop. It's plays like this that make me nervous about Manu. His ratio of good plays to bad plays has narrowed substantially of late and it's on the verge of biting the Spurs in the ass. That said, I think his performance in Game 1 overall was good. He was aggressive and didn't commit his usual compliment of boneheaded turnovers. If he can keep his game clean, that alone will help more than his shooting imo. Hopefully he has 2-3 great games in him. I still think we will need them in order to win the series.

[ElNono]

There was 11 seconds left not one or two for Gods sakes! D set or not you can get a better than that SO CALLED GOOD shot you said, that was a shot that had no chance in of going in once he launched it, Manu this year doesn't make that shot. This was a makeable shot I guess but you could have gotten alot better or tried to drive in and get fouled atleast? That Manu is gone though so we have to settle with jump shooting Manu alot late in games and ill advised threes that hardly ever go in. He made on this postseason I remember really that when he launched it I was like make it pleaseeeeeeee! Game one Warriors. Make it please is what we have been reduced to now, when he launches it we pray it goes in! You know it and I know it. This was not a good shot with 11 seconds left on the shot, not even close.

Sean, you're extra emo per the usual, but you're a good fella and I have no problem if you thought he shouldn't have taken that shot.

Fact is, this one of those rare games where Manu was actually shooting pretty well from downtown. He was 2-4 up to that point.

What's more, the Heat is a very solid defensive team. We 'wasted' 14 secs on the clock on a solid, well thought out and executed offensive play, and we ended up with with the exact same result as Manu shooting that 3: nothing.

As a reference, look at that clutch shot by Tony. He burned down the clock exactly until 11 secs too. Then we went to execute. Was it the play we wanted? No. Were we extremely lucky to even get a shot up? Absolutely.

So you need to put things in perspective here. We're not playing the Warriors or D-League Lakers anymore. We're playing against one of the top, if not the very best, defensive team in the league. So yeah, executing anything with 11 secs left, and after a broken play it's difficult.

Ultimately, that's why Pop puts the ball in Tony's and Manu's hand (Manu was actually handed the ball in the play right after, the high pick and roll with Tim where he was fouled). When our offensive breaks up, they're the two guys that either have the big balls to take the big shot, or make lemonade out of a lemon play.

Now, while I disagree that was "ill advised" or "hardly ever go in", that's your opinion and that's fine by me.

What's plain bull is to say that shot had any bearing on the Heat closing down the lead late in the game, IMO. We had a fairly poor first half defensively, some big mistakes like that Allen 3 pointer foul, etc that are much, much bigger than a single shot. That's all.

[2centsworth]

We had a 5 point lead when he took it and there was 1:36 to go in the game. Making it an 8 point game at that point just closes out the game.

exactly how Manu plays. He was playing well enough to go for the throat.

[2centsworth]

Sean, you're extra emo per the usual, but you're a good fella and I have no problem if you thought he shouldn't have taken that shot.

Fact is, this one of those rare games where Manu was actually shooting pretty well from downtown. He was 2-4 up to that point.

What's more, the Heat is a very solid defensive team. We 'wasted' 14 secs on the clock on a solid, well thought out and executed offensive play, and we ended up with with the exact same result as Manu shooting that 3: nothing.

As a reference, look at that clutch shot by Tony. He burned down the clock exactly until 11 secs too. Then we went to execute. Was it the play we wanted? No. Were we extremely lucky to even get a shot up? Absolutely.

So you need to put things in perspective here. We're not playing the Warriors or D-League Lakers anymore. We're playing against one of the top, if not the very best, defensive team in the league. So yeah, executing anything with 11 secs left, and after a broken play it's difficult.

Ultimately, that's why Pop puts the ball in Tony's and Manu's hand (Manu was actually handed the ball in the play right after, the high pick and roll with Tim where he was fouled). When our offensive breaks up, they're the two guys that either have the big balls to take the big shot, or make lemonade out of a lemon play.

Now, while I disagree that was "ill advised" or "hardly ever go in", that's your opinion and that's fine by me.

What's plain bull is to say that shot had any bearing on the Heat closing down the lead late in the game, IMO. We had a fairly poor first half defensively, some big mistakes like that Allen 3 pointer foul, etc that are much, much bigger than a single shot. That's all.

Too much logic.

[jhuan16]

Yeah He should pass it back to TP, there is plenty of time to let he do his thing. But that wasn't as terrible as the warrior shot. The spacing was all wrong when Manu catch the ball, heat got two defender in the paint which make it really hard to attack the paint.

[Sean Cagney]

Sean, you're extra emo per the usual, but you're a good fella and I have no problem if you thought he shouldn't have taken that shot.

Fact is, this one of those rare games where Manu was actually shooting pretty well from downtown. He was 2-4 up to that point.

What's more, the Heat is a very solid defensive team. We 'wasted' 14 secs on the clock on a solid, well thought out and executed offensive play, and we ended up with with the exact same result as Manu shooting that 3: nothing.

As a reference, look at that clutch shot by Tony. He burned down the clock exactly until 11 secs too. Then we went to execute. Was it the play we wanted? No. Were we extremely lucky to even get a shot up? Absolutely.

So you need to put things in perspective here. We're not playing the Warriors or D-League Lakers anymore. We're playing against one of the top, if not the very best, defensive team in the league. So yeah, executing anything with 11 secs left, and after a broken play it's difficult.

Ultimately, that's why Pop puts the ball in Tony's and Manu's hand (Manu was actually handed the ball in the play right after, the high pick and roll with Tim where he was fouled). When our offensive breaks up, they're the two guys that either have the big balls to take the big shot, or make lemonade out of a lemon play.

Now, while I disagree that was "ill advised" or "hardly ever go in", that's your opinion and that's fine by me.

What's plain bull is to say that shot had any bearing on the Heat closing down the lead late in the game, IMO. We had a fairly poor first half defensively, some big mistakes like that Allen 3 pointer foul, etc that are much, much bigger than a single shot. That's all.

Look I have no problem with the shot if it were just above the line! With less than 11 seconds to go! You can not deny Manu has been bad these playoffs % wise and some of his shots make you shake your damn head! He has been infact flat out horrible % wise these playoffs but I will still take him as he made the biggest shot of the playoffs so far in game one VS GS! That is the biggest shot of these playoffs so far! PERIOD! I love Manu! BUT I wish he would drive more like he used to and get fouled or get a layup! I hate the strictly jump shooting version of him! I guess he is too old now to drive so what we get is what we get! I miss the older Manu who would go to the rack and get fouled or lay it in! That one seems so long ago now.

Too much logic.

Yes I agree logic there bro, but a 30 foot three with 11 seconds to go on the clock when there is time to work it around is logic too! Saying he could have passed that up and and tried to drive in and get fouled or passed it to another player to get a closer look is logic too! That shot was horrible! No way that was going in there. Manu has done that alot lately and I miss the one who could actually drive in and draw a damn foul and get to the line or lay it in! I guess that Manu has sailed though and we get what we get now! Which is about 10 pts and 4 rebounds and 6 assists and 4 turnovers or so! I love Manu but he has some of the dumbest plays you will see at times! I realize he was always a gambler and I love that, but nowadays it is often making you shake your damn head and say wtf was he thinking at times and it is almost making you lose a game. He hit that huge shot against GSW and I love that! Otherwise he has been bad these playoffs for the most part, period.

If we are to win he has to do better % wise! Better shot selection, period. We need you Manu! We need him to win a le this year and he will be key believe it or not! If you launch idiot shots that have no shot at all at going in though, forget it.

[ElNono]

Look I have no problem with the shot if it were just above the line! With less than 11 seconds to go! You can not deny Manu has been bad these playoffs % wise and some of his shots make you shake your damn head! He has been infact flat out horrible % wise these playoffs but I will still take him as he made the biggest shot of the playoffs so far in game one VS GS! That is the biggest shot of these playoffs so far! PERIOD! I love Manu! BUT I wish he would drive more like he used to and get fouled or get a layup! I hate the strictly jump shooting version of him! I guess he is too old now to drive so what we get is what we get! I miss the older Manu who would go to the rack and get fouled or lay it in! That one seems so long ago now.

I feel you. I thought that bad 3 he took against the Warriors was rightfully awful (the one before the game-winner). I just disagree this was was anything like that one though. It's also much different when you drive against Carl Landry vs having Lebron waiting for you at the rack. You're also on the road, where it's tougher to get calls (Lebron couldn't stop whining after the foul on Tim in the play right after).

IMO, the decision was as close to a no-brainer as it gets: broken play, Miami amping up the defense, your defender sagging, everybody covered. This wasn't a shot with the game on the line (you know, the game within one possession). It was a shot to break their backs, put the game away, light at the end of the tunnel, glory days, fat lady sang, riding into the sunset, chickens come home to roost, witten no helmet, etc etc etc... it was going to be the 'big shot' before the actual 'big shot'. And you have to have the balls to take it, and also face up the consequences of not making it (which I guess is this thread).

To me, the big difference is that when Manu took that 3 pointer against the Warriors, Tony was mad as . Pop wanted to trade him on the spot. There were no such reactions this time around. I think everybody understood why that shot was taken. When the next timeout happened, it wasn't the guys telling Manu "stop chucking". It was Tim telling Green "don't foul 3 point shooters"...

[Manudona]

Parker had to put that up and he was trapped by Lebron, it was in no way shape or form worse than a damn 30 foot 3pt jumper that HAD NO CHANCE in of going in. LOL Much worse, just because you are argie doesn't mean you can pull that crap saying Parkers was much worse when it went in and Manus went clank badly.

Look at the video, Manu frees himself with more than 3 seconds and then Green moves to the back of Parker with a little over a second, so Parker could have passed instead of keep dribbling with Lebron all over him as you said, but this is the last I say, it is not important as the Spurs won anyways.

[Raven]

you leave manu alone on the three, he's going to shoot, no matter what his balance is and no matter how much is left on the clock. If he starts second guessing those shots, he'll start hesitating when it matters and none wants that.

[Obstructed_View]

If Manu was black nona yall wud be hatin.

[Marcus Bryant]

Gotta keep things unpredictable. That's what his game is about. It's been that way for a decade.

[Sean Cagney]

Gotta keep things unpredictable. That's what his game is about. It's been that way for a decade.

Yep, too bad he doesn't have his legs like he did in 05 and hardly makes that shot anymore though.

you leave manu alone on the three, he's going to shoot, no matter what his balance is and no matter how much is left on the clock. If he starts second guessing those shots, he'll start hesitating when it matters and none wants that.

In a game late I would rather him pass than shoot a three 3 feet behind the line and have the team off and running the other way. He has done that alot this year late in games (That one went in luckily).

Look at the video, Manu frees himself with more than 3 seconds and then Green moves to the back of Parker with a little over a second, so Parker could have passed instead of keep dribbling with Lebron all over him as you said, but this is the last I say, it is not important as the Spurs won anyways.

Parker made the shot though so who cares? Manus shot with 11 seconds left from 3 feet behind the line never was going to go in. Thats just a horrible shot.

One made it one missed, we are talking bad about the one that made it now? Why is this always a Parker vs Manu thing with Argies? I noticed that ALOT

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Dude it's Ginobili. Over the years he has proven to be clutch. Quit ing.

[TheCultOfPersonality]

It was a terrible shot because he had Mike Miller, one of the worst defensive players in the NBA this century, guarding him and he decided to settle for a long 3 pointer.

Mike Miller in the prime of his career was getting beat off the dribble by the likes of Mike Dunleavy Jr. I'm sure Ginobili can do the same thing to this version of Mike Miller.

[z0sa]

this sean cagney fool use more exclamation marks than harlemheat uses ellipses