FYI...

[Skull-1]

What?
It's been established a long time ago that you are definitely the troll here.
Or did you miss that while wearing your blinders?

I only get called a troll by the people I slay with logic and truth. Then they block me and others make similar points to mine, and are praised, deservedly, for their brilliance. I could care less but am too tired to care at all.

[xmas1997]

I only get called a troll by the people I slay with logic and truth. Then they block me and others make similar points to mine, and are praised, deservedly, for their brilliance. I could care less but am too tired to care at all.

. More of your BS.
You are really full of yourself.
When did they let you out of the sanitarium?
Next you'll be trying to convince us you're God Incarnate, Santa Claus, and the Easter bunny all rolled into one.
Get a life, man!
You lost the argument a long time ago.

[Skull-1]

. More of your BS.
You are really full of yourself.
When did they let you out of the sanitarium?
Next you'll be trying to convince us you're God Incarnate, Santa Claus, and the Easter bunny all rolled into one.
Get a life, man!
You lost the argument a long time ago.

Actually I won it big time. You're making a complete and utter fool of yourself. You're aware of that, right? Of COURSE NOT. WHAT AM I SAYING?

Shut up with the wimp sauce. Go ugly early. Bring it strong, never weak.

[xmas1997]

Thank you for finally realizing you lost.
Naw, just wishful thinking on my part.
Truth hurt yet? It should.
Why don't you just go back to your Mavs forum?
We have class here.

[Skull-1]

Thank you for finally realizing you lost.
Naw, just wishful thinking on my part.
Truth hurt yet? It should.
Why don't you just go back to your Mavs forum?
We have class here.

We? You got a frog in your pocket?

[cd021]

You actually touch on a philosophical debate that advanced stats experts have on assists. The PPR (pure point rating) is a statistical formula to determine a player's playmaking ability. In it, a turnover is more costly than an assist is helpful. The thinking is that you don't need an assist to score points, and that the assist does not actually directly create the points either, so you can't say "hey an assist, it was worth two points" when he didn't actually make the shot, he just passed to a guy who did. It isn't directly worth 2, just like a turnover isn't directly worth 2 points in the other direction.

If you want to talk about how much he contributed, look at his GameScore stat or +/- stats, and both are ty. In fact, in a thread a couple months ago we had looked up his GameScore and +/- stats for the playoffs and they kept going down as the playoffs went on. Manu got most of his stats in the first 2 series and barely did since.

Onto your "his assists got us this and his turnovers cost us this: Actually his 22 turnovers also cost us at least 22 points on top of those 26, so that's 48 at least. And as I said earlier, Manu should not get full credit for the points scored on an assist, you're really trying to stretch your dollar with that. At max he should get half credit since he's not even taking the shot himself, he's just half of the play. That's what advanced stats are meant to be for. So we'll say he's responsible for adding 36 points making plays. That means he still cost us -12 in net total, so his playmaking was a negative, not a positive. That's on top of his poor shooting outside of games 5 and 7. Overall, Manu barely had a positive impact on the series besides being a decoy outside of games 5 and 7. This is reflected in his GameScore stats, which were right around ZERO for most of those games. 10 being "average".

And btw, feel free to use the same logic on Tony Parker's performance if you want to try bashing him. I use the same logic when determining the usefulness of any player's playmaking, this isn't something I cooked up just for this. That's why I defend Parker's performance and bash Manu's. Parker had a positive overall impact despite the leg injury, Manu did not outside of two games. And one of the two (game 7) is basically what we typically expected as recently as the season before. Minus the choking at the end.

His shooting numbers were as bad as they seemed, I posted his shooting stats already including and not including his 2 good games. Games 5 heavily inflated his overall %, but I prefer looking at the mode rather than the average. I'm not arguing Manu helped us win game 5, I'm saying he was really bad in games 1-4 and game 6 especially, so game 5 and 7 don't matter.

As for how he did against OKC. . .honestly, if you look at that series too, he SUCKED at OKC. Like a huge holy level dropoff. He let James Harden beat the brakes off him all series too. Though I'd happily take a "50/50" good/poor Manu over a 71% chance of below average starting NBA SG impact (14% of which is a HUGE negative impact, and 29% is a well below average, borderline neagtive impact), 14% chance of an average game, and 14% chance of a good game that helps us win it.

That's what it boils down to. He was poor in most of the games when he's supposed to be one of our better players. I couldn't give a less if Leonard missed afree throw. Manu missed his free throw right before Leonard did and also sucked hard that game while underperforming throughout the series while Leonard was pretty good throughout the series and is already known to not be a great FT shooter. That's false equivalency. Manu was far worse than Leonard from expected impact and actual impact standpoints.

Manu's entire season was worse than expected, and his impact per minute went down really far in the finals. Dude played 20% more minutes and still put up less numbers. So he was about 20% worse than what you should have expected from his already below expectations season too.

I actually chose my words carefully about Manu's points created off of his assists. I said he created points not essentially scored them himself. That being said I never said that he scored them himself, he created open looks for his teammates that otherwise wouldn't be able to create for themselves on a consistent basis. I was using the 72 points scored off of his 30 assists as guide to how valuable his assists were.


That’s an interesting The PPR” is something I’m unfamiliar with. Based on what you summed up a turnover is more costly than an assist. Because a player doesn’t need an assist to score and even when he receives a pass he still has to make that shot. That makes since but I don’t necessarily agree with the logic entirely. For the Spurs we really only have 3 players who could create their own shot.

Leonard, Green, Neal (sort of a hybrid of the two), Bonner, Diaw and Splitter all rely heavily on the play making or additional defensive attention to or of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. It doesn’t really take into account the individual players on a any given team. In the Spurs case, there really aren’t that many players who can
actually score consistently on their own.

Open looks created are paramount to our offense (as with any, really), Manu obviously didn’t score those points but getting spot up shooters open jumpers that they more than likely , wouldn’t have even gotten is important none the less. Also 1/3 of Manu’s assists came from open 3 point opportunities.

There is a reason why we lead the league in assists ball movement is key in our offense. Compare that to Oklahoma City where both Durant and Westbrook do scored a combined 50 ppg. They seldom assists on each other’s baskets. It would seem, based on your description of PPR that it would more accurate for a team that players who can consistently score on their own because, to them, it’s irrelevant whether they get assisted baskets or not they simply can score on their own no matter what.

I do not understand the concept that Manu's 22 turnovers actually cost us 48 points? Please clarify. I get that allowing just 26 points off Manu’s 22 turnovers aren’t because Manu ,solely, made up for his short comings on the defensive end but the team managed to clamp down and keep a team who thrives in transition to scoring in the half court. As with what “Ace” said and I had previously expanded on was that his 8 turnovers hadn’t been the cause of our game 6 debacles.

Most of his turnovers occurred during the first 3 quarters and we still thoroughly outplayed Miami. I’d also point to the fact that even with Manu’s 8 turnovers; we still only had 13 which was actually below both our regular season and postseason average. Given the importance of the game Manu & Parker almost exclusively handled the basketball with Duncan getting touches in the post or on P&Rs.

He did play poorly overall in Game 6, but my beef is more with Coach Pop. He could have kept Duncan or Parker in for 3 minutes of the 1^st 5:30 of the fourth quarter instead of leaving Manu who wound up attempting just four shots with Splitter (damaged goods at that point) Neal, Leonard or Green ( I can’t remember which one, but I believe it was Green) and Diaw.

Where was the offense supposed to come from? Manu didn’t play well in game 6. I get it but leaving him out to dry to start the 4^th quarter of a le clinching game on the road against an explosive offense and an dependent group of teammates for so long made no since.


I don't have a problem with Parkers performance; I have a problem with people’s unrealistic expectation of Ginobili. He did underperformed but he had lofty expectations that was almost impossible to live up to given his age and declining skill. While going against a top tier defense.

The OKC game 5 was an anomaly, I knew it then and I know it now. Many people seem to have been using that game as an unrealistic bar for how to judge him. I mentioned that his performance that postseason was similar to this past post season. His shooting was better (but still worse than his career playoff numbers)his turnovers were actually up while his assists were below his marks from this past season.

I'm assuming you meant that we could have scored 22 points on those possessions (bare minimum) Its useless using that logic, there isn't an advanced advanced stat on possessions that never occurred.

What we do know was Miami was never able to truly capitalize on Manu's mistakes. turnovers in 200 minutes of game time isn't that bad.

[xmas1997]

Both sides of this discussion are equally interesting.
Thanks kidd and cd021, you both make some very valid reasonable astute points unlike some on here who only know how to cast blame.

[cd021]

I've been saying this all off-season, Manu shat the bed when it mattered the most, he didn't just have one bad play like Duncan's missed layup + tip in, he had 4 games worth of garbage and then some. There were many highlights, like the missed free throw that could have sealed the championship, or the turnover at the end of OT. It was a mix of Manu being off his game and Pop trusting him til the end. He benched Timmy before he even thought of benching the worst performer on the team. I would have rather had an injured Parker try to make a tough shot to tie the game in OT than have turnobili go up against 2-3 defenders and turn it over. And then there's this moment, we were basically at the same position the Heat were in Game 6, what does Manu do? What's done is done, we can't change the facts, we can only hope Pop and others learned from that experience and if we should be in that position against next year we wouldn't up the way we did this year.

The problem i have with benching Manu means that Neal would have to play against that PG-less lineup. The shortest player in that lineup was Wade who is bigger and stronger than Neal.

Also Neal can't defend and he had problems in Game 6 & 7 with getting shots up with Miami and their length and athleticism. He kept pump faking and attempting to drive instead of his no hesitation jumpers.

As for Duncan being benched. At least Pop had precedent of doing that but it worked out terribly. My beef was with Pop benching Duncan and Parker for half of the forth quarter while Miami got hot. Our offense never looked the same afterwards and I don't think Duncan even scored after he returned.

Manu missing a freethrow and he gets crushed. Kawhi caps a bad free-throw shooting slump (down from 82%-67% from the regular to the postseason) with a miss and no one criticizes him.

Splitter had the same thing happen and he gets ripped last post season.

That just seems like a double standard.

[Skull-1]

I actually chose my words carefully about Manu's points created off of his assists. I said he created points not essentially scored them himself. That being said I never said that he scored them himself, he created open looks for his teammates that otherwise wouldn't be able to create for themselves on a consistent basis. I was using the 72 points scored off of his 30 assists as guide to how valuable his assists were.


That’s an interesting The PPR” is something I’m unfamiliar with. Based on what you summed up a turnover is more costly than an assist. Because a player doesn’t need an assist to score and even when he receives a pass he still has to make that shot. That makes since but I don’t necessarily agree with the logic entirely. For the Spurs we really only have 3 players who could create their own shot.

Leonard, Green, Neal (sort of a hybrid of the two), Bonner, Diaw and Splitter all rely heavily on the play making or additional defensive attention to or of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. It doesn’t really take into account the individual players on a any given team. In the Spurs case, there really aren’t that many players who can
actually score consistently on their own.

Open looks created are paramount to our offense (as with any, really), Manu obviously didn’t score those points but getting spot up shooters open jumpers that they more than likely , wouldn’t have even gotten is important none the less. Also 1/3 of Manu’s assists came from open 3 point opportunities.

There is a reason why we lead the league in assists ball movement is key in our offense. Compare that to Oklahoma City where both Durant and Westbrook do scored a combined 50 ppg. They seldom assists on each other’s baskets. It would seem, based on your description of PPR that it would more accurate for a team that players who can consistently score on their own because, to them, it’s irrelevant whether they get assisted baskets or not they simply can score on their own no matter what.

I do not understand the concept that Manu's 22 turnovers actually cost us 48 points? Please clarify. I get that allowing just 26 points off Manu’s 22 turnovers aren’t because Manu ,solely, made up for his short comings on the defensive end but the team managed to clamp down and keep a team who thrives in transition to scoring in the half court. As with what “Ace” said and I had previously expanded on was that his 8 turnovers hadn’t been the cause of our game 6 debacles.

Most of his turnovers occurred during the first 3 quarters and we still thoroughly outplayed Miami. I’d also point to the fact that even with Manu’s 8 turnovers; we still only had 13 which was actually below both our regular season and postseason average. Given the importance of the game Manu & Parker almost exclusively handled the basketball with Duncan getting touches in the post or on P&Rs.

He did play poorly overall in Game 6, but my beef is more with Coach Pop. He could have kept Duncan or Parker in for 3 minutes of the 1^st 5:30 of the fourth quarter instead of leaving Manu who wound up attempting just four shots with Splitter (damaged goods at that point) Neal, Leonard or Green ( I can’t remember which one, but I believe it was Green) and Diaw.

Where was the offense supposed to come from? Manu didn’t play well in game 6. I get it but leaving him out to dry to start the 4^th quarter of a le clinching game on the road against an explosive offense and an dependent group of teammates for so long made no since.


I don't have a problem with Parkers performance; I have a problem with people’s unrealistic expectation of Ginobili. He did underperformed but he had lofty expectations that was almost impossible to live up to given his age and declining skill. While going against a top tier defense.

The OKC game 5 was an anomaly, I knew it then and I know it now. Many people seem to have been using that game as an unrealistic bar for how to judge him. I mentioned that his performance that postseason was similar to this past post season. His shooting was better (but still worse than his career playoff numbers)his turnovers were actually up while his assists were below his marks from this past season.

I'm assuming you meant that we could have scored 22 points on those possessions (bare minimum) Its useless using that logic, there isn't an advanced advanced stat on possessions that never occurred.

What we do know was Miami was never able to truly capitalize on Manu's mistakes. turnovers in 200 minutes of game time isn't that bad.

Dodging the issues, KK raised, just like you dodged mine. What a stat weenie.

[xmas1997]

Dodging the issues, KK raised, just like you dodged mine. What a stat weenie.

What a hypocrite you are! How much more hypocritical can you get?
That goes beyond being biased, rather you are a prejudiced narrow minded ignorant hypocrite, a perfect asswipe!
Both kk and cd021 both post friendly intelligent but opposing viewpoints, with stats, yet you choose to accuse cd021 of being the stat weenie? .... when they both used stats???
No wonder most on here think you are a joke!
Please, troll, go back to the Mavs forum where came from and where you belong!

[Skull-1]

What a hypocrite you are!
Both kk and cd021 both post friendly intelligent but opposing viewpoints with stats, yet you choose to accuse cd021 of being the stat weenie? .... when they both used stats???
That goes beyond being biased, rather you are a prejudiced narrow minded ignorant hypocrite, a perfect asswipe!
No wonder most on here think you are a joke!
Please, troll, go back to the Mavs forum where you belong!

And you are a falsely accusing, illiterate, simpleton, dbag. Cd021 is dodging multiple issues and parroting his slanted, incomplete, bogus, agenda-driven "stats". Mind your own business, hypocrite. Just because you throw around words like prejudiced does not make it so. Nobody buys that slanderous/libelous crap. Stfu, worm.

[xmas1997]

And you are a falsely accusing, illiterate, simpleton, dbag. Cd021 is dodging multiple issues and parroting his slanted, incomplete, bogus, agenda-driven "stats". Mind your own business, hypocrite. Just because you throw around words like prejudiced does not make it so. Nobody buys that slanderous/libelous crap. Stfu, worm.

Go whine to someone who gives a , crybaby!
And while you're at it, look up the definition of some of the adjectives that I used to describe you, you might actually learn something!
Better yet, go back to your Mavs forum!

[Skull-1]

Go whine to someone who gives a , crybaby!
And while you're at it, look up the definition of some of the adjectives that I used to describe you, you might actually learn something!
Better yet, go back to your Mavs forum!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVcOh-B70e0

[xmas1997]

As usual, more juvenile BS instead of a valid reasonable argument on your part.
Have you ever heard of the word "debate"?

[Strategic]

To be fair, rotations ARE supposed to shorten in the playoffs.

The Heat's first team is led by Lebron, the Heat's second team is led by ............Lebron, the Heat's third team is led by Lebron. Who has a rotation to match that line-up, but for father time?

[Skull-1]

As usual, more juvenile BS instead of a valid reasonable argument on your part.
Have you ever heard of the word "debate"?

Yep. And in the debate, in which cd021 is the only one who at least tried to offer an argument, I completely pwned you both. So shut your fat pimply face already. NOBODY CARES ABOUT ANYTHING YOU SAY.

[Skull-1]

The Heat's first team is led by Lebron, the Heat's second team is led by ............Lebron, the Heat's third team is led by Lebron. Who has a rotation to match that line-up, but for father time?

Leonard was our main burn player. Only guy young enough to keep going.

[xmas1997]

Yep. And in the debate, in which cd021 is the only one who at least tried to offer an argument, I completely pwned you both. So shut your fat pimply face already. NOBODY CARES ABOUT ANYTHING YOU SAY.

Listen to me very very carefully, troll:

Go Back To The Mavs Forum Where You Came From!

[Skull-1]

Listen to me very very carefully, troll:

Go Back To The Mavs Forum Where You Came From!

Squawk. Squawk.. Squawk.

[xmas1997]

Squawk. Squawk.. Squawk.

Hmm, can't read either. That explains a lot.

[Skull-1]

Hmm, can't read either. That explains a lot.

Squawk. Squawk.

[xmas1997]

Squawk. Squawk.

QUIT FOLLOWING ME.

[Skull-1]

QUIT FOLLOWING ME.

This from the stalker who won't stfu even though he has said he would repeatedly. Lmao.

Still waiting for something original.

[xmas1997]

This from the stalker who won't stfu even though he has said he would repeatedly. Lmao.

Still waiting for something original.

See my last post!

[Skull-1]

See my last post!

We are still waiting...