Raffy nailed on the juice

[whottt]

But there are certain things that irritate me...

#1. Steroids have been used in athletics for 50 something years now....What makes everyone so sure that they just started using them in the 90's? Arnold Schwatzenegger was using them in the 60's.

#2. If the pitchers are using steroids as well....doesn't that make things equal?

#3. Who else did them?

This is the truly sickening aspect of it....how can you repect/trust any of these players...I am telling you guys Palmeiro showed less indication of using them than just about any other power hitter...

It's a total black eye for the game...and he should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame...but the game has always had these issues....and he's not the only one doing it...he's just the one that got caught first.

#4. I agree that cheaters shouldn't be allowed in the Hall...

But people need to stop acting like players didn't cheat back in the good ole days...that's the most tedious argument ever.

They used spitballs and scuffballs, corked bats...

They were bigots...they threw World Series...they jumped in the stands to beat up a men with no arms...

They tried to manipulate batting le races...

There have always been guys that cheated and it is nothing new to the game.

Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame...and he's one of the most notorious cheaters of all time.....he's proud of it...they call him "crafty".

[DrRich]

Whottt's hero goes down in flames. First he should apologize to Jose Canseco. Obviosly, Canseco wasn't BSing when he said he saw Raffy take steroids. He wasn't really a power hitter until Canseco came to Texas. That should have been the red flag right there.

Raffy is a cheat. 3000 hits and 500 homeruns don't mean jack when you've been juiced for the last 13 years.

Whenever anyone says his name from now on, the first thing you'll think about is steroids. Nice job, Raffy. He should have just retired and saved some of his legacy.

Raffy for prez?

Yeah right.

This in NO WAY vaslidates what the s of the earth Canseco wrote in his book! Mr. S also wrote that he discussed steriod use with Bret Boone while he was on second base during a spring game. If you go back and look at the schedule Canseco never played Boone in a game that year!!!

Now, I am not excusing Raffy in any way, in fact it sickens me because I was a fan of his. But to give even the slightest amount of credit to Canseco is appalling in my book. He was just makin up to sell more books. He is just a selfish jealous ball player that never could cut it ove the long haul!!

[DrRich]

Palmeiro hasn't played in a World Series. In 22 postseason games, he has only four homers and eight RBI, with a .244 average. Not really THREATENING @ the plate...

So I guess going by these standards. Bonds is out as well!! He disappears in the post season and does not have a ring, either!

HOF consideration is a career achievement not just a award for post season accolades!! Palmiero has had a stellar career, but the steriod revelation just tarnished beyond recognition!

[samikeyp]

As for his numbers...themselves they are hall worthy in any era and it's ignorant to say they aren't...even if he isn't.

not if...if...those numbers are steroid-aided.

The thing is...we will probably never know.


Question though.....we don't know the actual date of the positive test.....Raffy just got his 3000th hit...was he on the juice at the time of that hit and if so, should the record stand?

Discuss.

[FromWayDowntown]

not if...if...those numbers are steroid-aided.

The thing is...we will probably never know.


Question though.....we don't know the actual date of the positive test.....Raffy just got his 3000th hit...was he on the juice at the time of that hit and if so, should the record stand?

Discuss.

I don't think that you can really parse it like that, mikey. Palmeiro is certainly a good enough hitter that, whether juiced or not, he was going to ac ulate a lot of hits in the major leagues over a long career. If you are going disallow his 3,000th hit, don't you also have to be sure that he wasn't juiced for hit #853, #1752, and #2495 too? I don't think you can do it on a hit-by-hit basis, or on a home run-by-home run basis.

I mean, do you discount every hit from the time that he tested positive backwards to the latest possible start date (say, the test accounts for any usage for the last six weeks -- do we go from six weeks before the test through the date of the test?). It's enough that people will be su ious of his achievements, just as many are su ious (or give less credence) to the career achievements of a guy like Gaylord Perry.

[samikeyp]

I am not parsing it like anything. I was asking a question, not expressing my personal view.

No one can prove the extent of his usage, it may have been exactly what he said it was...unintentional...it also may have not. I think that "what if" could weigh on the minds of those who have votes and may (emphasis on may) cause some of them to change their minds. If I had a vote, and this is my opinion, I probably would not vote for him. I said earlier I would not vote for him, but I have had time to think about it and I am not so steadfastly sure anymore.

[spurster]

Every stat for the last 20-30 years can be questioned because of steriods, not just Palmiero's.

[samikeyp]

Maybe it would be easier if we gave the juicers their own league. Give them aluminium bats, use a mechanical pitcher, to avoid death, and let them swing away!

[atlfan25]

If you go back and look at the schedule Canseco never played Boone in a game that year!!!

I may be mistaken, however i recall him saying it was in a spring training game.

[Spurminator]

What we are witnessing is a regrettable hangover from baseball and baseball fans' drunken 90s binge on the Longball.

In the 70s and 80s many of the biggest stars in baseball were the ones who played a great all-around game... Rickey Henderson, Ryne Sandberg, Wade Boggs, Don Mattingly, Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Pete Rose, Dale Murphy, Keith Hernandez, Alan Trammel, Robin Yount, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Rod Carew, Ozzie Smith... and I know I'm forgetting a lot of other players.

Sure, you had your star sluggers... Reggie Jackson, Jim Rice, Daryl Strawberry, Jose Canseco, Andre Dawson... But there was balance. You didn't HAVE to be a slugger to be appreciated. And a lot of times, a one-dimensional slugger would be criticized for being such.

In the nineties, particularly in the years following the strike, it seems like the appreciation for the hustle aspect of the game diminished. There were still players who played that way, but they were often overlooked in favor of the growing number of 50-homerun hitters.

Hopefully in the coming years, baseball and the media will shift its focus back to the players who play the game well all around, and play it the right way.

[DrRich]

I may be mistaken, however i recall him saying it was in a spring training game.

Yeah it was and they never played on the field at the same time!!!

[FromWayDowntown]

I am not parsing it like anything. I was asking a question, not expressing my personal view.

No one can prove the extent of his usage, it may have been exactly what he said it was...unintentional...it also may have not. I think that "what if" could weigh on the minds of those who have votes and may (emphasis on may) cause some of them to change their minds. If I had a vote, and this is my opinion, I probably would not vote for him. I said earlier I would not vote for him, but I have had time to think about it and I am not so steadfastly sure anymore.

I wasn't accusing you of parsing it -- I was saying (in the context of offering my opinion based on your suggestion that we discuss your question) that I disagreed with the premise. My point, as you say, is that it would be impossible to draw any kind of clear lines with respect to any of these guys. Part of the problem with that is that until last season, the game didn't prohibit players from using steriods and other such nonsense.

I can't say whether I'd vote for Palmeiro or not. I know that I would vote for Bonds, but Bonds is different to me because: (1) the su ions about him have never gone beyond su ions -- he's never been publicly identified for testing positive and until he does, I'll withhold judgment; (2) Bonds was a sublime player before any concerns arose about steroid use -- he was an MVP-quality player in the late-80's and early-90's, before he discovered, uh, "weight training," or whatever made him what he is now.

I agree with spurminator's point wholeheartedly. The guys who were the great players when I was growing up and loving my one game a week on Saturday afternoon (with Joe Garagiola and Tony Kubek) were guys who did most things well. Guys like Dave Kingman (lots of HR, lots of strikeouts) were never really considered stars by most fans. Guys like George Brett and Don Mattingly, who were big-time hitters with some power, were the perrenial MVP candidates. Teams that had great pitching and pretty good offense could still win les -- Dodgers in 88, Kansas City in 85, St. Louis in 82. Those teams wouldn't have much of a chance anymore. I think, to some extent, the transformation pre-dates the strike in 1994; maybe it started with Oakland's 3 straight pennants in 88, 89, and 90, and their other playoff appearances around that time. Whatever its cause and whenever it happened, the change has not been good.

[Duff McCartney]

I got this from another message board. They were discussing the Palmeiro deal on the radio and one of the radio hosts and news. This was the news...

But his NEWS was different and quite informative. He said that in the wake of the suspension, he had spoken with 3 separate sources, each of whom are "very close" to Palmeiro - as close as you can be, he said, and are in position to know - and all 3 said that Canseco's account (in which he said that Palmeiro was a juice baby supreme) was completely accurate. "Everything that Canseco said in the book was completely true" according to all 3 separate sources.

[Sportcamper]

Do you know what you call a player who doesn't take steroids?
A Dodger...

[atlfan25]

NEW YORK -- Rafael Palmeiro's positive steroid test was for stanozolol, a powerful anabolic steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, according to a newspaper report.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113

[timvp]

lol @ stanozolol

Nice stuff there, Raffy. Let's see Whottt spin this one.

"Everyone else did it so why shouldn't Raffy. Period."

[whottt]

When have I tried to spin anything?

Did you miss the 25 other times I condemned it in this thread?

You think this somehow backs up that weak ass stat analysis you used to claim he had no power....it doesn't. That argument was weak and that's why I argued with you over it. He did have power. The stats become incriminating when combined with with Canseco's allegations and the time frame he mentioned...not the numbers themselves.

You need to go look at the careers of some other players of yesteryear...using your logic of HR differential from the previous year(ignoring any other previous career high)just about every player in baseball history did steroids....including Jimmy Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and a few others.

You know what proves he did steroids? The fact he got caught. Not his stats by themselves.

[whottt]

Again...this is what I said 6 months ago when Canseco first made the allegations:

02-06-2005, 12:42 PM

Link

Damn!

This is devastating. It's a no-brainer that McGwire was a roid head...I knew he was a roid head back in 92.

It's also a no-brainer that Juan Gone was a user...although I doubt Jose introduced Juan to them...Juan was using them well before Jose came to the team...was obvious.

Pudge doesn't really suprise me...

Raffy...say it aint so Raffy...

Damn, it just fits too perfectly though...his numbers did turn into power numbers at the time Jose joined the Rangers..and sadly, his decline in numbers last year is just a little too perfectly timed with the ins ution of a steroid tesing policy.


But everything Jose says fits perfectly with the other playrs he mentioned, and I believe him...it would be naive for me to think that he the only one he lied about was Raffy...especially when Raffy was a childhood friend of his.

Sadly, I don't think Jose is lying.

Time to retire Raffy. Why try and hit benchmarks when you cheated?
The same goes for Bonds and Sosa and all these other heads.

[T Park]

BTW, this stuff he got busted on was the same stuff Ben Johnson got busted on.

Nice job Taffy.


Frank Robinson>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Taff y


Frank Robinson is probobly the most underrated and prob a top 6 player in baseball history but is overshadowed by roid heads like Bonds, Pudge, McGwire and Taffy.

Sad....

[whottt]

Yeah these are the true anabolic steroids...and man easily detected too, for many years now.

I tell you one thing...honestly I could actually kind of forgive the steroid usage if he showed some kind of remorse over it...because let's face it...others guys do it. And cheating has always been part of the game. He'd still be a fraud...but that's not as bad as what he is now.

What gets me is that the dude is a cold hearted liar that can lie under oath without a shred of remose and then just go and do some steroids right after swearing he didn't do them...McGwire may be a wimp but at least he has a conscience...

Raffy doesn't even have that. Not only that but he's arrogant as too..they said he tested positive for these a few weeks after he testified before congress...what absolute arrogance.


And stupidity...not only is he doing an easily detected roid...he's doing a dangerous one...I am no medical doctor but I am almost certain that mixing roids and viagra is not good for you. This type of roid isn't good for you...it's amazing the dude has stayed as healthy as he has...it's incredible actually. Stupid mother er.

Not only that...but he had it made once he got 3000 hits...he only needed 70 hits...he could have limped to that this season without roids and ended his career going into the HOF and with his legacy in good shape...other than a Canseco accusation.

No Raffy is more that just roid head....he's got serious ing character issues...beyond just being a cheat, and he's a dumbass on top of it.

He's worse than McGwire and Giambi...but and even a little worse than Bonds and Sosa(who showed no remorse but at least they tried to get off of them)...the difference is that he's been caught and none of those guys have.

No way does he belong in the HOF...ever...you cannot let him in after this because he's got gaping holes in his character. And he doesn't even deserve sympathy if he get kept out of the Hall.


He thought he could just do whatever he wanted, an obvious steroid, afer testifying before congress...when he knows MLB is going to be testing for it...He thought that he was untouchable and he had absolutely no conscience...those are holes, big holes.

[tlongII]

Yeah it was and they never played on the field at the same time!!!

You sure about that? I wouldn't dismiss it so cavalierly. While I'm no fan of Canseco's I believe most of what is in his book is factually based. Not all spring training games are recorded for posterity so I think it's impossible to say it didn't happen.