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Who cares about cost? Who would you say is better? Rose or Horry?
What part of cheap veteran did you not understand? Horry made $1.1M last season. Horry is a veteran. Add it up.
And I never said it was a bad move. In fact, it turned out to be a good move. Horry stepped up and Mohammed turned out to be a solid starter. Like I said, the Spurs are smart and they know how to play the system.
Now watch the next step. Oberto will be the cheap replacement for Nazr Mohammed. If everything works out like the Spurs hope, Baby Hakeem will be the way of the dodo bird after this season.
Who cares about cost? Who would you say is better? Rose or Horry?
Exactly.
The same tune will be heard next summer. Same song, different chorus.
P.S.
Believe me, if Horry had a seven-year $42M contract, they'd try to ship his azz out before you could finish replying to this post.
On the $ , in addition Javtokas will be brought in Cheap to be Oberto's backup.- Take it to the bank....at this time next year. The writing is on the wall. These are still Holt Cat's Spurs. They've grown accustomed to having overspending teams subsidize their payroll through the luxury tax system. They just signed a center for $7.5 mil over 3 years. That's a great deal better than the $30 mil over 4 they are on the hook for to Radoslav or the $50+ mil over 5 or 6 years that Nazr is bound to command in free agency next summer.
Rasho will be dropped for anything. I would not even be surprised if they waive him under the lux tax amnesty clause. The Spurs will either be outbid in free agency next summer for Nazr (they might handle that DA-style) or they will move him before the trade deadline.
Why pay Rasho or Nazr $7.5+ mil a season to do what Oberto will do for $2.5?
We're the Spurs.®
How could they have offered more?The Lakers actually offered more money to Rose, but he picked SA.
IIRC, the Lakers offered him six-years, $42M. The Spurs offered him seven-years, $42M.
At least Rose finally has some job security now.
Under Brown's system, it seems that half of the Knick's roster is on the trading block. For the first time in years, Malik probably isn't one of them. Now he just has to avoid that whole doghouse thing, and he'll be in good shape.
...but he still makes a damn good sammich.
Didn't Horry get the MLE in 2003-4 before getting the min last year? Now this year Horry's salary is somewhere close to MLE level.
While that's still cheap, it's not all minimum salary.
In the end, Oberto's contract is less than Nesterovic's and Scola's will be less than Nazr's. The Spurs can fill the starting 5 and the second bench bigman spots much more cheaply with the Argentines than with Nazr and Rasho.
When in doubt, go cheap.
It won't matter how well Nazr plays next season. He's gone by the end of it, if not in late February.
Last edited by Marcus Bryant; 08-06-2005 at 11:18 AM.
I had my dates confused. I fully acknowledge and appreciate the contributions Malik made in '03. He was huge in the playoffs for the Spurs, and had a of a year.
That makes sense. If they had signed somebody to the max offer sheet, I could see them exploring filling Rose's salary slot with more than one player.After that season ended, the Spurs started to try to trade him. They wanted to go after Kidd, JO'Neal and whoever else was a free agent that summer. Getting Rose's contract off the books would have helped in those regards.
That season, Horry made 4.5 million and Rose made 4.9 million. If Horry's shots had gone down in the playoffs and the Spurs had beat LA and played well in the finals, do you really think Horry would have resigned for the minimum like he did? Maybe he would have come cheaper than Rose, but the Spurs didn't know that they would get him for the minimum (4.3 million less than Rose's salary) that next summer during the season.The next season, Horry came to town and the Spurs had their out. They had a more experienced, taller playoff legend at a cheaper price.
Last I checked, Horry plays a different game than Rose. If the Spurs had brought in Jerome Williams, then I think this would be a fair statement. But Malik's role was never to be a clutch three point shooter that would keep defenses honest, and Horry wasn't brought in for his physical work down low and a 110% hustle approach to the game. If Rose had kept playing like he did in 02-03 (thanks for the correction on the dates, timvp) he would have been a lot harder for the Spurs to trade. If he had played like that Malik this past year when Rasho's balls retracted into his body, a Malik who was able to step in and effectively spell Big Dave for 24.5 minutes a game, would the Spurs still have traded him? I would say no.That's when the trade rumors were no longer rumors ... they were facts. So Rose had to deal with a player brought in to beat him out, the pressure of producing with his contract AND constant trade rumors. His minutes become more sporadic and he eventually failed.
Contract pressure isn't an excuse for changing your game. First, as Marcus has been so fond of pointing out, it wasn't an outrageous contract for a big man who plays 20+ minutes a game the way Rose did on '03. Second, I repeat my earlier statement that you didn't answer, timvp: Proof? Show me something, anything where the Spurs asked Rose to do anything more or play any differently than how he played when he earned that contract. Nobody asked Malik to play Horry's game. They wanted him to play his game. If Malik had done so, there would have been plenty of minutes in the lineup for both him and Horry, especially with Rasho disappearing the way he did.
Was there added pressure? yes. There's no denying that Horry would take some of his minutes. There's also no denying that the Spurs were open to the idea of moving him. But this isn't that uncommon of a situation. Malik could have used that pressure as motivation to show the Spurs just how valuable he was to the team. Unfortunately, he responded to it in the wrong way. But again, that's on Malik, not the Spurs.
When was he hung out to dry? When Pop would praise him when he played well and bench his ass when he played like a fool? Does it suck to hear that you might get traded? No doubt about it. Does it suck to know you aren't the only backup bigman option, and that the other guy has skills you don't have? Sure. But how is that an excuse for changing the way you play when all you are being asked to do is play your game? For me the bottom line is that Malik was put in a difficult spot. But how he responded to his situation made the situation much worse, not better. If Malik was performing at his 2003 level this past year, Pop could have played him for 20 minutes a night without any problems. Rasho and Tim together averaged only 58 minutes of a possible 96 minutes. 38 minutes is plenty of time left over for Horry and Rose.The Spurs got exactly what they wanted. They got rid of the long-term contract Rose had and replaced him with a minimum salary veteran. The fans were mad, but not as mad as they would have been if Rose hadn't been hung out to dry for the previous one and a half years. No one could have produced at the level the contract demanded coming off the bench while fighting with Horry for minutes.
The Spurs are damn smart. Don't think any of this happens by accident. They traded away Rose and inserted a cheap veteran in his place.
Now the ironic thing is they're hoping the exact same thing happens with Mohammed. They have a cheap veteran who will compete with Mohammed for minutes. When Mohammed becomes a free-agent, the Spurs can play the greed card and hang Mohammed out to dry. This time, Oberto can fill in his role and the Spurs again are able to cut salaries and come out smelling like roses (no put intended).
I would have traded Malik too. He wasn't contributing to the team the way he used to. He let the pressure get to him and it changed him. And that change made him more expendable. And if Oberto outplays Mohammed, then it makes a whole lot of sense to let Nazr walk or sign and trade him.
Like I posted earlier though, none of this proves anything beyond the fact that the Spurs are making decisions based on maximizing the talent to cost ratio. But if Nazr outplays Oberto next season? Then we'll be able to see what the front office is all about.
It wasn't just about those things. Rose earned that contract legitimately - why else would the Lakers be willing to offer even more? It was a nice bonus to show Tim that they were willing to pay, but they would have let him walk if they didn't think he could contribute. I seem to remember that Tim's other best friend, Antonio Daniels, was traded when it was obvious that he wasn't going to work out.P.S.
Also do not forget about the reasons the Spurs gave Rose the contract in the first place. It was a show of good faith to Tim Duncan (signing his best friend and proving they are willing to spend money) and it was to keep Rose away from the Lakers. The Lakers actually offered more money to Rose, but he picked SA.
It would be one thing if the Spurs were Donald Sterling cheap. But they've proven they aren't repeatedly. They will have a team payroll in the top ten in the league next year. What they are, like timvp said, is damn smart. They won't overpay for talent because they know what that can do to a team long term. But that doesn't mean that they go out and sabotage players careers to sign them on the cheap or justify getting rid of them. That is the exact opposite of the kind of thing Pop believes in, by every account I have ever read, heard, or seen about him. How could he have developed a unique reputation among players as a straight shooter if he was doing this? How could he have ever bonded with a man like Tim as closely as he has if this was his M.O.?
Last edited by Mark in Austin; 08-06-2005 at 12:23 PM.
Yeah!! Word! I vote to keep Rasho...he's the man! He played in TONS of games this season...of course he wasn't as good as last year....Manu went crazy! You can't have ten high scorers!
If Marcus' scenario turns out to be correct, the Spurs could play some home games in Buenos Aires. BA will definitly feel like SA.
Didn't the Spurs have an option on Horry? Didn't they refuse it in Summer 2004 to get cap space to sign Manu? Maybe they would have done that anyway, but Horry would have been able to get more than min salary elsewhere if he hit his shots for the Spurs.
Bump.
Marcus Bryant laid some ownage in this thread.
True. NostraMarcus.
He didn't think though the Spurs would replace em with a young guy in Jackie, or Elson.
Who's starting?
because hes earned it.
Once again, I thought you implied he was gonna just be put in there, because hes cheap.
He earned the job out of training camp, and has played fantastic.
I don't understand the point of it...
Not surprising.
Not suprising you couldn't keep it civil nor adult either.
Read the second post in this thread by MB ...
MB tells the board the future regarding three key players one year before events unravel and you bring up a meaningless point regarding Butler and Elson.
Then you wonder why people respond to you the way they do
Your premise was that Oberto would get the starting job, due to the SPurs just saying "hes cheap we will start him"
Except they also signed Francisco Elson and Jackie Butler.
They could've easily won the job and spoiled all this.
Fabricio won it from good play, not cause he was cheaper.
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