Reply With Quote
Really that bad ? Where is the proof ? Is Manu bad too ?Parker had the 2nd worst on/off metrics of any rotation Spur in the playoffs outside of Belinelli, tbh..
Here's the full quote to give it more context:
Reporter: "Can you talk a little bit about Cory and the fact that he's had to get more work in, and with Patty, how important that is?"
TP: "Patty, very sad, you know, his injury, but that's part of basketball, and so we have a lot of confidence in Cory to step up and play big."
Reporter: "Were you kind of amazed at what Patty was able to do in the Finals with a torn rotator cuff?"
TP: "Uhh, but not really, 'cause I've played with bad shoulders before, but I didn't know it was that bad, you know what I mean? So he shot the ball very well to have a bad shoulder like that."
Skip to around 3:42:
Training Camp Day 3 - Tony Parker
We knew OP had certainly selected the words he wanted so thank you for giving the context.
Really that bad ? Where is the proof ? Is Manu bad too ?
Manu had the best on/off numbers of any Spurs player in the playoffs IIRC..I haven't checked them since after the Finals, though, I'd have to look it up to confirm..
Pretty sure it was 1. Manu 2. Kawhi 3. DG or Mills
Splitter was #1 through the 1st 2 rounds IIRC, but he wasn't as effective in the final 2 rounds..
Those stats say far more about lineups and matchups than an individual player's performance. TP had some very good performances in the playoffs, but inconsistent only by his MVParker standards. He was always the floor general and opened up games to get the Spurs in rhythm. Guys like DG don't supernova without Parker and his penetration and initiation of the offense.
Absolutely. It has been painful to watch some of our guard play over the decades. And, we get a ing ringer, and people nit-pick his flaws.
He definitely didn't have playoff runs like he could have. Year before last he was on fire and in MVP talk with LeBron and Durant. We have never had a PG that was good enough to generate that kind of respect. His injuries the last two years have been annoying, but I can live with them vs. not having him.
Manu career playoff stats:
19.9 - PER
58.2 - TS%
111 - ORtg
103 - DRtg
.170 - WS/48
Parker career playoff stats:
17.2 - PER
51.8 - TS%
103 - ORtg
107 - DRtg
.089 - WS/48
Some of the above stats are a function of different positions (pg vs. sg), and some are a function of whether they are playing in the first rotation (and therefore against the stars and best players of the opposing team) or in the second squad, in which until this last year at least, Manu was essentially the ONLY offense for the spurs and did not face the very best defensive player on the opposing team, which Parker often did. I think the more relevant stats are comparing tp with other pgs and Manu with other sgs in the playoffs.
I am a huge fan of Manu, so I don't want my comments to be used as a Parker vs. Manu argument. My only point in these is that the Spurs system and the roles each of the players have had impacts these numbers. Raw data often does not reflect the entire picture.
I know that you hate Parker, Johnny, and I don't want or need to take that away from you. It is fine with me. I only wanted to point out some explanation for some of the differences.
Dunno where this canard originated, but if anyone actually takes the time to look up the numbers, they'll quickly find out it's not only not true when it comes to the playoffs, but it's also way off when you look at it career wise.
Overall, there shouldn't be a need to sink one player to prop up another, but it's done all the time around here, tbh (both ways, and I know you're a standup guy EVAY, so it's not directed necessarily at you)
E-N, I know that Manu normally plays the end of halves with the first team, including in the regular season. I sometimes feel that it is impossible to just try to put some context around anything regarding either Manu or TP without someone taking offense.
And I don't think that you were directing a negative comment to me; I didn't take it that way at all. And, as I said, when I posted what I did it was intended more contextually than
as a direct comparison between the two players.
I am pretty much on record any number of times saying that I believe that Manu's talents are frankly superior to TP's and that I would rather watch Manu play than any other Spur, and that pretty much includes Duncan. But saying that someone has more basketball talent than the other guy does NOT, in my mind, begin and end a discussion regarding the relative value of both players.
The thing is that BOTH players are important to the team in their respective positions. I rarely comment at all any more in the gazillionth posting "this is why Parker is " or "this is why either TP or Manu is better than either Manu or TP." When I was typing that post I thought to myself "Why are you even talking to Johnny Ringo about this when you know he is irrational about it". I knew that there were contextual arguments to be made about Manu's playing etc.
Parker plays the way that Pop wants the Spurs system to play. Manu does as well. They are asked to different things and they each do them well. That is all we should be focusing on.
I'm 100% in agreement, two different guys that bring their own championship pedigree to the team. Glad we have them, and we'll miss them when they're gone
But Manu plays with our second unit most of the time, he doesn't play with the best spurs player. TP play with the starters. TP should have 99999999 assists (for example) because he's playing with TD, KL, green, etc.
And Manu always had better stats in terms of PER, ORTG, etc even when he was A STARTER.
Point guards typically do very well well in ORtg(they're the player running the offense most of the time so it makes sense). Parker's ORtg being so low in the post-season pretty much confirms he's not a very good playmaker. Just compare his career playoff ORtg to other great PGs.
Here's some legendary ones:
122 ORtg - Magic Johnson
116 ORtg - Stockton
110 ORtg - Isiah Thomas
107 ORtg - Payton
Here's some of Parker's contemporaries:
118 ORtg - Billups
116 ORtg - Nash
117 ORtg - Paul
Sad thing is Parker is pretty damn good in the regular season(109 ORtg). He just seem unable to translate that into the playoffs. Not that surprising the Spurs have suffered some legendary choke jobs in the post-season when they have a point guard that's unable to find opportunities for his teammates.
but but TP has one FINALS MVP he's our best player
that's what they are going to say..
Parker isn't the only one to blame for the choke jobs. Manu's been responsible for more choke jobs in the playoffs than any player on the team. TP isn't perfect, but he's also been clutch as ever since he became the guy. Has bailed out some turnover/stupid shot prone SG coming off the bench...
-2013 Warriors Game 1: led The Comeback. Scoring and playmaking for Green, Leonard, and Diaw
-2013 Finals Game 1: The shot
-2013 Finals Game 6: Put spurs up five with 28sec left
-2014 Game 7 vs Dallas
I don't challenge your Ortg stats. But some additional ones might be relevant:
Parker is fifth among all point guards in NBA history in post season assists.
The four point guards in NBA history with more post season assists than Parker are:
Magic Johnson
John Stockton
Jason Kidd
Nash
Added to being 5th in post season assists, he is also the leading scorer among ALL pgs in the NBA in post season history.
Not bad company for a 'post season choker'.
That's because he played too many games. You can say the same with Manu, he's probably top 5 SG in some stats too, for example 3PFG and others..
Last edited by Diego20; 10-10-2014 at 09:57 AM.
Except your criticism was that Parker doesn't get 99999999 assists. When he's 5th all-time in assists in the playoffs. You don't get to that level by being a scrub player. Especially on a team like the Spurs that have historically ran setups like 4 down and utilize so much off-ball movement for players.
And forgive me for laughing at you. Parker is a score-first point guard. Not a primary distributor. His job is to penetrate and begin to break down the defense. If hockey assists were a thing in the NBA, Parker would have 3x as many assists as he does now. But NO ONE in the Spurs history racks up assists very quickly because every guy is willing to make the extra pass than force a bad shot. Duncan is a top 5 passing big of all-time, honestly, and maybe the best outlet passer the game has ever seen who's over 6'8", and yet he only gets 3-4 dimes per. It's. The. System. Get it through your skull.
This is the 8 millionth time this has been discussed on the site and it always ends the same way. You recycle the same arguments about why Parker is terrible in the face of all statistics that say otherwise. So go ahead and bang that drum, it just clues people into how little basketball you are actually able to watch objectively without an agenda.
Except that TP played like 30 more games than Nash however he has less assists. We all know TP is a score-first point guard HOWEVER THERE ARE OTHERS SCORE-FIRST POINTS GUARD that averages the same points as TP but averages MORE ASSISTS THAN TP, you understand that bro?
They can't handle the truth
So wait, is red font now used for truth? Like the blue font is for sarcasm?
Green font for tbh?
This place is gonna turn into ing bag of Skittles before all is said and done.
So Tony isn't the best point guard in history. Is that what you're trying to prove? If so, man, give yourself a huge pat on the back.
I'm also betting that no point guard has ever been in such a self-less system like the Spurs. NO ONE passes the ball like this team does. The 2014 Spurs are the best passing team in the history of the NBA and it isn't close. 1 pass on another team is 4 passes in our offense. Focusing on raw stats is absurd when we have a team. Parker fits into the system beautifully because he forces the defense to adjust to his constant threat of penetrations. Green, Leonard, Marco, and Manu don't get "magically" wide open from beyond the arc 47 times per game. It's because defenses have to constantly shift to deal with our disruptive offense, and Parker is probably the best disruptor we have (save for Manu when he's shooting lights out). Hopefully Kawhi can step into more of a role in that offense now that he's gaining confidence and getting better at handling the ball. For the past 6-8 years though, Parker has been the start of a lot of our offense. Pop is just enough of a genius that our starting point is far, far away from our end point in most sets.
Let's organize that same group of players by playoff assists per game:
12.3 - Magic
10.1 - Stockon
8.8 - Nash
8.0 - Kidd
5.2 - Parker
Parker's not in the same tier as those guy as a playmaker.
Parker's a good scorer in the regular season but he's terribly inefficient in the playoffs. A career .518 TS% in the post-season. Compare that to other great PGs past and present:
.595 - Magic
.568 - Stockton
.583 - Nash
.578 - Billups
.575 - Paul
2004, 2006, 2013 were all winnable years for the Spurs but Parker's inefficient series against the '04 Lakers, '06 Mavs, and '13 Heat probably cost the Spurs a few les.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
