Amateur: Swaggy P is the real deal

[Thread]

^I'll just bet you would.

[Killakobe81]

Even in the current situation, I'd take the Lakers roster without Kobe over:
Wolves
6ers
Pistons
Knicks
Pacers
Boston
Hornets
Jazz
Nuggets
Kings (with Cousins injured, but not when Cousins is back)
Magic

This may be the dumbest post of the year definitely gets my vote. this cant be trollin' because troll jobs are usually clever. SO you actually typed that? Sat in your office considered the rosters and came up with THAT list? Minus Kobe we are better than the Nuggets and Pacers? The Pacers who just pushed our in ...dem Pacers? A team led by Lin, Boozer, Swaggy P and Jordan Hill? Over Pacers, Jazz, Nuggs and Wolves? The Swaggy P that was derided around these parts as a useless chucker? Lin who was an overpaid undrafted scrub. Lotto bust Hill THAT team? hahahahahaha, ROFL

OK I officially am done. No more basketball takes with you fine, sir I will admire your work from afar. El and DPG/Havoc (when they are not slumming) only dudes worth debating/bantering with. I make an exception for CN and Harlem. CN because he is funny childish but funny and Harlem because he brings solid hoops takes with his trolling ...

Happy holidays Amb, was fun while it lasted. Like DPG, I'm only here to talk basketball but with with real posters not trollers.

[Splits]

Who's who?

[Thread]

^I've never seen a championship fandom so angry,,,though you're always a sorehead asshole.

[Splits]

For reference, w/o Kobe, Lakers ORtg/DRtg is very respectable. Basically the Trailblazers.

[ambchang]

This may be the dumbest post of the year definitely gets my vote. this cant be trollin' because troll jobs are usually clever. SO you actually typed that? Sat in your office considered the rosters and came up with THAT list? Minus Kobe we are better than the Nuggets and Pacers? The Pacers who just pushed our in ...dem Pacers? A team led by Lin, Boozer, Swaggy P and Jordan Hill? Over Pacers, Jazz, Nuggs and Wolves? The Swaggy P that was derided around these parts as a useless chucker? Lin who was an overpaid undrafted scrub. Lotto bust Hill THAT team? hahahahahaha, ROFL

OK I officially am done. No more basketball takes with you fine, sir I will admire your work from afar. El and DPG/Havoc (when they are not slumming) only dudes worth debating/bantering with. I make an exception for CN and Harlem. CN because he is funny childish but funny and Harlem because he brings solid hoops takes with his trolling ...

Happy holidays Amb, was fun while it lasted. Like DPG, I'm only here to talk basketball but with with real posters not trollers.

Buddy, you have really fallen off a cliff intellectually since the Spurs won 5. I mean, you can make a snark description for any single player in the NBA.

You think the Pacers have a great roster? Who's so great? Stuckey? Hill? Scola? Hibbert? The only good guy on the roster is West, and he's not been playing well this year (not to mentioned oft-injured).

Jazz? Supremely overpaid Hayward? Unrealized potential Kanter? No defense Favors? Who do they have that is so much better than the Lakers?

Nuggets? Lawson, Affalo, Faried and Chandler vs. Hill, Lin, Boozer, SwaggyMVP is pretty much a push, and the bench is about as bad. I may give the Nuggets a slight edge to the Nuggets because of Faried, but with the departure of Kobe, the chemistry of the Lakers will shoot through the roof, and all the players will undoubtedly perform better without some guy jack up 25 shots on .389 shooting a game.

Wolves? The entire team are castoffs.

[Splits]

the chemistry of the Lakers will shoot through the roof, and all the players will undoubtedly perform better without some guy jack up 22.4 shots on .382 shooting a game.

Fixed, but point taken. Just look at the on/off metrics I posted and it tells 90% of the story. The other 10% is that Kobe showed up for his 1st practice in a month recently. How do you build chemistry when the guy who's got a 36.4% usage rate doesn't even show up at the practice facility?

[Stalin]

Honestly, the difference between current Kobe and 1998 Dad Killer isn't substantial IMO..

If you replace Kobe with 1998 DK in today's era with the advanced level of play, and put him on a team with one of the worst coaches and supporting casts in the league, I don't think the Lakers would have a better record than 3-9..

If you put Kobe on the '98 Bulls with Phil, Scottie and Dennis, in the slow-paced, antiquated era of basketball, Bulls still win that championship IMO..

1.5/10


Come on, breh, I know you can do better. I remember det season. Actually, bulls offence wasn't slow paced at all, it had movement and was efficient, they run the triangle for scrubs in first half, to get them involved, with Jordan taking open jumpers or fadeaways out of the triangle, throughout, they mainly isolated him at end of games if it was close, otherwise Dad Killer was icing his knees by the end of third, which happened way too much imo tbh. It's very doubtfull Kobe Rapist would win in 98' with that cast. First of all, has Kobe ever won a le without a dominant big carrying him? I very much doubt Luc Longley would be able to carry Rapist to det le, breh. That whole team was made of DK and pippen, basically, with rodman only providing rebounding and defense, and soft kukoc some scoring of the bench, rest were scrubs like Jub Buechler and Jason Caffey, lel. Would Kobe be able to make scrubs like that play better? Has he ever raised the level of scrubs on his team as DK did year after year during those 3peats? I don't recall that Kobe ever has. Second of all, Rodman. No ing way him and Rapist get as far as the finals, two immature premaddonas like that would never be able to coexist. Everyone on that 98' team knew their role and where their shots came, there was actually really good chemistry between scrubs and the "selfish" Dad Killer, and if you add the Kobester and his all game chucking into this, he'd everyone's rhythm up in his psychotic pobsession to get his, eventually making the team implode as he regularly has done throughout his Lakeshow career.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Honestly, the difference between current Kobe and 1998 Dad Killer isn't substantial IMO..

If you replace Kobe with 1998 DK in today's era with the advanced level of play, and put him on a team with one of the worst coaches and supporting casts in the league, I don't think the Lakers would have a better record than 3-9..

If you put Kobe on the '98 Bulls with Phil, Scottie and Dennis, in the slow-paced, antiquated era of basketball, Bulls still win that championship IMO..

come on man

[Malik Hairston]

..

[AlexJones]

Even '03 Deeks would probably still dominate today's ty SG position though

[Killakobe81]

Buddy, you have really fallen off a cliff intellectually since the Spurs won 5. I mean, you can make a snark description for any single player in the NBA.

You think the Pacers have a great roster? Who's so great? Stuckey? Hill? Scola? Hibbert? The only good guy on the roster is West, and he's not been playing well this year (not to mentioned oft-injured).

Jazz? Supremely overpaid Hayward? Unrealized potential Kanter? No defense Favors? Who do they have that is so much better than the Lakers?

Nuggets? Lawson, Affalo, Faried and Chandler vs. Hill, Lin, Boozer, SwaggyMVP is pretty much a push, and the bench is about as bad. I may give the Nuggets a slight edge to the Nuggets because of Faried, but with the departure of Kobe, the chemistry of the Lakers will shoot through the roof, and all the players will undoubtedly perform better without some guy jack up 25 shots on .389 shooting a game.

Wolves? The entire team are castoffs.

Difference is your brethren on here was deriding the Lakers roster in the off-season, it turned out to be ...but you saying if the Lakers polish that same and get rid of Kobe things would be better.

Since I am only here to talk hoops there is great article that proves both our points on the site "the Cauldron". It says Kobe is hurtin' the Lakers with his all-time high usage rate and inefficient scoring. Not once have you heard me say oh well, Kobe is scoring so the way he is playing doesnt bother me or in some ways detrimental to winning. So on that score you have some valid points ...where we digress and why I am done with you and your intellectual "cliff" is the same article points out that the only players that are playing better without Kobe are Davis and Hill and (IIRC) Swaggy, Lin, Boozer and Wesley Johnson shoot perform etc (again using advanced metrics) worse when Kobe is off the floor.

That is why individual plus minus is a waste. In the end he concludes Kobe is not truly helping or hurting the Lakers because even if he passed more and shot less this team is ty. Im sure it would help chemistry some if he passed more and they would steal a few wins just like his dumb jacking art times helps us win like the late shot vs. Minny.

Bottom line this team sucks. If you take out Kobe this team loses to that same Minny team without Rubio and Pek that is how bad this team is. But again since you want to trash Kobe (when it's actually pretty easy this year) but instead of just saying look at the standings/scoreboard/stats you constantly overrate a ty roster since you think in some way it helps your crappy hypothetical argument that has been on by many posters already. Kobe is the leader and face of the franchise for one of the worst teams in Lakers history ...why do you need to make up extra when like Mulder said the truth is out there for everyone to see? That is what I dont get and so since I know you are not stupid but continue to say dumb so I am done with you ...only reason i responded was to post the article and conclude my argument.

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/kobe...s-7dd5b3b3fa13

Convincing Kobe to open his eyes and start passing, moving, collaborating, and playing with the team around him is a challenging proposition, and maybe with good reason, too — the team around Bryant is not good by any measure. It’s also unlikely that backing off on a few possessions to let the offense flow would somehow propel these Lakers into even a modi of respectability. Anyone being honest knows that.

[ambchang]

Difference is your brethren on here was deriding the Lakers roster in the off-season, it turned out to be ...but you saying if the Lakers polish that same and get rid of Kobe things would be better.

A) What other Spurs fans think has nothing to do with what I think. I am not going to lump you with Koolaid Man, narutoluva, and the other Laker dimwits
B) Since when is a 35-win team not a roster? Especially when we are talking about the Lakers, aka the franchise who makes the finals half the time, won more les than it has missed playoffs (by a wide margin) and only missed consecutive playoffs once before last year?

Since I am only here to talk hoops there is great article that proves both our points on the site "the Cauldron". It says Kobe is hurtin' the Lakers with his all-time high usage rate and inefficient scoring. Not once have you heard me say oh well, Kobe is scoring so the way he is playing doesnt bother me or in some ways detrimental to winning. So on that score you have some valid points ...where we digress and why I am done with you and your intellectual "cliff" is the same article points out that the only players that are playing better without Kobe are Davis and Hill and (IIRC) Swaggy, Lin, Boozer and Wesley Johnson shoot perform etc (again using advanced metrics) worse when Kobe is off the floor.

Of course! You don't see the ball for 38 minutes of the game, and then bam! You are expected to shoot once every minute and a half and make up for the 40+% usage rate, of course you will suffer.

That is why individual plus minus is a waste. In the end he concludes Kobe is not truly helping or hurting the Lakers because even if he passed more and shot less this team is ty. Im sure it would help chemistry some if he passed more and they would steal a few wins just like his dumb jacking art times helps us win like the late shot vs. Minny.

Bottom line this team sucks. If you take out Kobe this team loses to that same Minny team without Rubio and Pek that is how bad this team is. But again since you want to trash Kobe (when it's actually pretty easy this year) but instead of just saying look at the standings/scoreboard/stats you constantly overrate a ty roster since you think in some way it helps your crappy hypothetical argument that has been on by many posters already. Kobe is the leader and face of the franchise for one of the worst teams in Lakers history ...why do you need to make up extra when like Mulder said the truth is out there for everyone to see? That is what I dont get and so since I know you are not stupid but continue to say dumb so I am done with you ...only reason i responded was to post the article and conclude my argument.

Umm... because the Lakers are not historically bad? Mid 90s Mavs had worse rosters, so did the mid 90s Nuggets, those early Miami teams, those awful Hornets, Magic teams, the Grizzlies, Raptors were significantly worse than the Lakers this year. This is not a 20 win team, this should be a 30 to 35 win team.

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/kobe...s-7dd5b3b3fa13

Convincing Kobe to open his eyes and start passing, moving, collaborating, and playing with the team around him is a challenging proposition, and maybe with good reason, too — the team around Bryant is not good by any measure. It’s also unlikely that backing off on a few possessions to let the offense flow would somehow propel these Lakers into even a modi of respectability. Anyone being honest knows that.

Scott has a huge hand in this too, I am not pretending that is not the case. If there is a system, the Lakers can be a good team.

Hey, we are still sitting at 0.100 without SwaggyMVP, 0.500 with SwaggyMVP.

[Splits]

That is why individual plus minus is a waste. In the end he concludes Kobe is not truly helping or hurting the Lakers because even if he passed more and shot less this team is ty. Im sure it would help chemistry some if he passed more and they would steal a few wins just like his dumb jacking art times helps us win like the late shot vs. Minny.

How did you read that article and come to that conclusion? I read the entire article, the point he is making is NOT that the team sucks and Kobe sucks, it's exactly the same point Amb is making, that Kobe is hurting his team and they are worse with him on the court ON OFFENSE. He doesn't even address the actual problem with Kobe and that is your DRtg is 118 with him on the court.

The le of the article is "Kobe Bryant Is Hurting The Lakers" and he uses advanced metrics to prove it on the offensive end. He then completely contradicts himself in his last paragraph with some soft language which isn't supported by the facts he just laid out or take into consideration the fact that he ignored Kobe's impact on defense.

[Clipper Nation]

Damn, Killa getting shat on ITT.

Leave Kirby aloooone

[Splits]

the same article points out that the only players that are playing better without Kobe are Davis and Hill and (IIRC) Swaggy, Lin, Boozer and Wesley Johnson shoot perform etc (again using advanced metrics) worse when Kobe is off the floor.

No

Not surprisingly, everyone’s usage rate rises when Kobe is taking a breather, but it is their performance during those times that is interesting. Robert Sacre and Nick Young shoot slightly worse with Bryant on the bench, and Jeremy Lin and Wesley Johnson fall off significantly, but several other players improve dramatically when more opportunity becomes available to them. Boozer and Jordan Hill, in particular, post impressive scoring efficiency marks with relatively high usage rates. Meanwhile, Ed Davis and Wayne Ellington have looked great in slightly larger roles.


As always, statistics are meaningless without context, so what about the overall team’s offensive efficiency when Kobe is not on the floor?


Los Angeles’ offense is 5.1 points worse per 100 possessions when Kobe is on the floor. (The Lakers’ defense is also 15.5 points better without Kobe, but that’s a separate bonfire, altogether.) Obviously, there are numerous variables in play, and the season is still relatively young, but when you’re leading the league in usage and per-game scoring, and your team’s offense is significantly better without you, something is broken.

[Killakobe81]

Damn, Killa getting shat on ITT.

Leave Kirby aloooone

Never said that heel in fact I posted an article that shat on Kobe ...my only argument is the Lakers suck with or without Kobe. And no splits the article says the Lakers and Kobe both suck but like Amb you only care about one part ...

But I won't waste my time like Jay says you only get half a bar ...

And why does Amb keep comparing us to historical bad teams? I said this is one of the worst Lakers team never said they were the GOAT or WOAT ty team

[Malik Hairston]

Anybody judging the Lakers or Kobe by contributions to wins/losses clearly doesn't understand the objective of the Lakers' season..

There's absolutely no reason to believe they ever had any intention to win games this season..they hired one of the worst coaches in recent history, and their biggest off-season signing was a player that has been defined by his ability to sell tickets and generate hype, rather than actual basketball talent(Lin)..

Kobe is currently a terrible team basketball player, and their roster is full of mediocre/bad players that were just as bad in their situations prior to this season..if Kobe played consistent team basketball and everybody was permitted to play the role they want, sure, the Lakers could be a 10th seed at the end of the season..

What's the point of being a 10th seed caliber team, though?..especially for a franchise in basketball purgatory?..

This Lakers team is built to be at the bottom..only the Wolves and maybe the Jazz will be worse by the end of the year(in the West)..

[Thread]

Anybody judging the Lakers or Kobe by contributions to wins/losses clearly doesn't understand the objective of the Lakers' season..

There's absolutely no reason to believe they ever had any intention to win games this season..they hired one of the worst coaches in recent history, and their biggest off-season signing was a player that has been defined by his ability to sell tickets and generate hype, rather than actual basketball talent(Lin)..

Kobe is currently a terrible team basketball player, and their roster is full of mediocre/bad players that were just as bad in their situations prior to this season..if Kobe played consistent team basketball and everybody was permitted to play the role they want, sure, the Lakers could be a 10th seed at the end of the season..

What's the point of being a 10th seed caliber team, though?..especially for a franchise in basketball purgatory?..

This Lakers team is built to be at the bottom..only the Wolves and maybe the Jazz will be worse by the end of the year(in the West)..

Hair, running just as fast as he can.

[Splits]

And no splits the article says the Lakers and Kobe both suck but like Amb you only care about one part ...

Please point me to the part of the article where the advanced stats show the non-Kobes suck on offense.

The article was focused solely on Kobe on/off offensive metrics.

It never came to the conclusion that the non-Kobes were a poor offensive team, the conclusion was:

Los Angeles’ offense is 5.1 points worse per 100 possessions when Kobe is on the floor. (The Lakers’ defense is also 15.5 points better without Kobe, but that’s a separate bonfire, altogether.) Obviously, there are numerous variables in play, and the season is still relatively young, but when you’re leading the league in usage and per-game scoring, and your team’s offense is significantly better without you, something is broken.

He didn't mention the fact that the non-Kobes have an ORtg which is above league average (108.7 vs 105.9), and equal to league average with Kobe on the court (105.2 vs. 105.9)

He admittedly ignored (that's a separate bonfire altogether) the fact that the non-Kobes have an impressive, close to elite DRtg compared to league average (101.6 vs 105.9) and Kobe on the court produces a historically impossible-to-accomplish bad DRtg of 118.

The article was solid looking at the numbers, but the throwaway conclusion was completely contradictory of the analysis.

[Splits]

I would love for someone to explain to me how the non-Kobes have a DRtg of 101.6, which would be 5th in the league



yet Kobe is not hurting the team when he's on the court with the non-Kobe scrubs and their elite defense goes to historically bad DRtg of 118.0

[King Emmanuel]

kobe 5
duncan 4

[ambchang]

Never said that heel in fact I posted an article that shat on Kobe ...my only argument is the Lakers suck with or without Kobe. And no splits the article says the Lakers and Kobe both suck but like Amb you only care about one part ...

But I won't waste my time like Jay says you only get half a bar ...

And why does Amb keep comparing us to historical bad teams? I said this is one of the worst Lakers team never said they were the GOAT or WOAT ty team

You have to be pretty historically bad to only win 20 games in a season. A 30 to 35 win team is just a bad team. I am not even sure why you are so upset over it.

And being the worst Lakers team is about right. The team is on its way to missing the playoffs again, and they are going to miss the playoffs whether Kobe decides to play team ball or not because
a) the roster is that weak (not 20-win weak, but still weak)
b) Scott
c) the West is too loaded with good enough to make the playoffs but not enough to win it all teams

[ambchang]

Anybody judging the Lakers or Kobe by contributions to wins/losses clearly doesn't understand the objective of the Lakers' season..

There's absolutely no reason to believe they ever had any intention to win games this season..they hired one of the worst coaches in recent history, and their biggest off-season signing was a player that has been defined by his ability to sell tickets and generate hype, rather than actual basketball talent(Lin)..

Kobe is currently a terrible team basketball player, and their roster is full of mediocre/bad players that were just as bad in their situations prior to this season..if Kobe played consistent team basketball and everybody was permitted to play the role they want, sure, the Lakers could be a 10th seed at the end of the season..

What's the point of being a 10th seed caliber team, though?..especially for a franchise in basketball purgatory?..

This Lakers team is built to be at the bottom..only the Wolves and maybe the Jazz will be worse by the end of the year(in the West)..

Water is wet. All you said is pretty obvious to anyone

I admire the way the Lakers go about it, because getting Scott and Kobe in the name of the Lakers brand, when in actuality the move was entirely to tank was brilliant, but it still doesn't mean the Lakers are as bad as a 20-win team. The Lakers are on pace to win around 27 games, which is about where they should be at.