Celtics: Prime Paul Pierce or current James Harden?

[Double-Up]

Pierce does not rival LeBron

Yea that's about the level of intelligence of lakerfan in general these days.

[LkrFan]

Pierce does not rival LeBron

Have you seen Prime Pierce? He was a bad bad dude.

[LkrFan]

Yea that's about the level of intelligence of lakerfan in general these days.

LeHype was sent packing by mid-prime Pierce a few times. His ass ran all the way to South Beach because he couldn't handle the Truth! that shiiiiiiiiiiit!

[ambchang]

LeHype was sent packing by mid-prime Pierce a few times. His ass ran all the way to South Beach because he couldn't handle the Truth! that shiiiiiiiiiiit!

You are mixing up team and individual accomplishments again.

One side has KG, Allen and Rondo. The other side has Mo Williams and I don't even remember who.

[djohn2oo8]

In terms of career accomplishments, it's most definitely Pierce and it's not even close.

But that is not the point of this thread, and I felt a lot of people are mistaking the topic.

In terms of prime vs. current, I would say they are pretty even, but Harden does have the better numbers, most traditional and advanced. I would still pick Pierce though, just an easier player to build around because he can direct an offense (better than Harden), score (not as good as Harden, but close), and defend the perimeter (much better than Harden).

Pierce requires an all-star big next to him who can score, rebound and defend. Those guys don't grow on trees, but is surely a lot easier to find than a bunch of three point shooters who can defend AND an all-star big who can score rebound and defend.

Harden dominates the ball on offense, but he is not really good enough to carry an championship level team on offense all by himself, like Lebron, Dirk, Tim, Shaq or even Wade could. So it's extremely tough to really field a championship team around him with an offense that is tough enough to defend, but can also hide his defensive deficiencies.

It's not a coincidence Harden's numbers drop in the playoffs after he became a #1, because as good as he is, playoff defenses can stop Harden, but there aren't really any other creators on the Rockets to take that burden off of him. The reason they don't have that #2 creator is because that #2 creator cannot really strive in the Rockets environment, where it's Harden dribbling and crossing over for 16 seconds before he drives to the basket to score, get fouled, or kick it out. Harden would be GREAT in the 90s.

In terms of ranking the players, I have, barring injuries and only prime:

Wade
Iverson
TMac
Harden
Carter
Pierce

In terms of career:

Pierce
Wade
Iverson
TMac
Carter
Harden (just too young, would most definitely move up)

Yes Harden is good enough to do so. it would help if all the big men on his squad could hit free throws. Smith, Howard, and Capela were horrid in the playoffs. It's pretty simple what the team needs around him, is reliable three point shooters and a point guard that can hit his shots. Actually, in the playoffs Howard, Brewer, Smith, Jones and Capela were all around 60%, 50% and 40% from the free throw line. That is unacceptable for an NBA player.

[ambchang]

Yes Harden is good enough to do so. it would help if all the big men on his squad could hit free throws. Smith, Howard, and Capela were horrid in the playoffs. It's pretty simple what the team needs around him, is reliable three point shooters and a point guard that can hit his shots. Actually, in the playoffs Howard, Brewer, Smith, Jones and Capela were all around 60%, 50% and 40% from the free throw line. That is unacceptable for an NBA player.

Now you are just being greedy.

Dwight was putting up 17/15 and Smith 13/6 in the playoffs, and Dwight was putting up 14/14 and Smith 15/5 in the GSW series.

As for FT%, you knew what you were getting when you got those players, and them shooting a higher clip at the FT line will not turn a 1-4 series loss into a series win anyways.

Harden's offensive game is, as part as it is to stop, quite predictable. It's more of Morey's problem than it is Harden's, as he fielded a team that really doesn't give you that much variation on offense, but it's clearly an environment that allows Harden to strive in.

So you basically are saying Harden requires a bunch of people around him who can hit shots and defend, but I would imagine any NBA superstar would be able to lead such a squad to a championship, Pierce included.

[djohn2oo8]

Now you are just being greedy.

Dwight was putting up 17/15 and Smith 13/6 in the playoffs, and Dwight was putting up 14/14 and Smith 15/5 in the GSW series.

As for FT%, you knew what you were getting when you got those players, and them shooting a higher clip at the FT line will not turn a 1-4 series loss into a series win anyways.

Harden's offensive game is, as part as it is to stop, quite predictable. It's more of Morey's problem than it is Harden's, as he fielded a team that really doesn't give you that much variation on offense, but it's clearly an environment that allows Harden to strive in.

So you basically are saying Harden requires a bunch of people around him who can hit shots and defend, but I would imagine any NBA superstar would be able to lead such a squad to a championship, Pierce included.

It may or it may not. However, if a team can't shoot free throes they are not going to win. Game 1 was decided by 4 points, Howard and Jones missed 6 free throws combined. And game 2, decided by one point, the team missed like nine free throws. It matters and is a simple mechanic that everyone should master being paid millions to do it.

[ambchang]

It may or it may not. However, if a team can't shoot free throes they are not going to win. Game 1 was decided by 4 points, Howard and Jones missed 6 free throws combined. And game 2, decided by one point, the team missed like nine free throws. It matters and is a simple mechanic that everyone should master being paid millions to do it.

Unlikely though. You are expecting them to make a high percentage of FTs (at least 6 of 8 to tie, or 7 of 8 to win), and that is just not happening, and simply not their game. Besides, many of them got FTs in the first place because they are so bad at it.

In Game 2, the team didn't even shoot that many FTs, with Harden shooting a majority of them anyways. Dwight was 8 for 11 from the field, and that is not enough, he's gotta nail his FTs as well, which really is greedy.

Really, how many players right now his Dwight Howard's game AND can nail FTs at a decent (say 70%) clip?

[hater]

Pierce was one of the best defenders in the league in his prime.

Pierce by a few football fields

[jdiggy0424]

It may or it may not. However, if a team can't shoot free throes they are not going to win. Game 1 was decided by 4 points, Howard and Jones missed 6 free throws combined. And game 2, decided by one point, the team missed like nine free throws. It matters and is a simple mechanic that everyone should master being paid millions to do it.

Also Harden has a tendency to be severely unclutch in the playoffs. Game 1 was completely his fault by losing the ball, and as the superstar/leader your team there is no excuse for 13 turnovers in a closeout game. I also don't need to bring up his performance (or lack thereof) against the Heat. In basketball, especially in the playoffs, you need a guy that is not only the emotional leader of the team, but makes the clutch play/shot when it matters most. Pierce, even in his old age, has shown this time and time again that he delivers. That's why I choose Pierce (for now, because Harden is still young).

When this debate comes up again in 4-5 years it could be a different story.

[Spurtacular]

I think Non-Spur opinion would be Pierce carried a Franchise for 8 something years

While Manu was good/bad blessed with Timmay

I love Pierce, but he's not like a Bird, Magic, Duncan who are gonna take his team to 50 wins no matter what. Maybe Manu never exactly had to carry a team; but Pierce didn't exactly do that either.

[LkrFan]

You are mixing up team and individual accomplishments again.

One side has KG, Allen and Rondo. The other side has Mo Williams and I don't even remember who.

What's up with all these LeHype nuthuggers? Okay, I'll play your silly ass game:

A) LeHype is 0-1 in the Finals as a Cav (EC was WEAK det year)
B) LeHype is 2-3 on a loaded roster
C) That's a pathetic Finals record
D) Battier bailed his ass out in 2012
E) Ray Ray did the same in 2013
F) Steph Curry tapped that ass last year

EC projects to be weak for the forseeable future. He'll moonwalk to the Finals again and again. Let's see if he improves on his PATHETIC Finals record. No excuses.

And at you using Rondo as part of your argument. SMH

[ambchang]

What's up with all these LeHype nuthuggers? Okay, I'll play your silly ass game:

A) LeHype is 0-1 in the Finals as a Cav (EC was WEAK det year)

So now finals record matters?

5-1 better than 5-2, I'd say.

B) LeHype is 2-3 on a loaded roster

07 Cavs was loaded? 15 Cavs was horrible, especially the Finals version. Any team with Mo Williams and Delladova as your second best players are by definition horrible.

C) That's a pathetic Finals record

See above, 5-1 > 5-2.

D) Battier bailed his ass out in 2012

And? Isn't that the entire point of a team game?

E) Ray Ray did the same in 2013

See above.

F) Steph Curry tapped that ass last year

Lebron was a one man wrecking crew. He put up historical numbers until the Warriors, with their loaded roster just tsunamied the Cavs.

EC projects to be weak for the forseeable future. He'll moonwalk to the Finals again and again. Let's see if he improves on his PATHETIC Finals record. No excuses.

So? 5-1 > 5-2.

And at you using Rondo as part of your argument. SMH

Rondo was a great fit for that Celtics team. He didn't have to score, just facilitate and defend, so his weaknesses (stat padding, inability to shoot) were masked.

[LkrFan]

So now finals record matters?

5-1 better than 5-2, I'd say.



07 Cavs was loaded? 15 Cavs was horrible, especially the Finals version. Any team with Mo Williams and Delladova as your second best players are by definition horrible.



See above, 5-1 > 5-2.



And? Isn't that the entire point of a team game?



See above.



Lebron was a one man wrecking crew. He put up historical numbers until the Warriors, with their loaded roster just tsunamied the Cavs.



So? 5-1 > 5-2.



Rondo was a great fit for that Celtics team. He didn't have to score, just facilitate and defend, so his weaknesses (stat padding, inability to shoot) were masked.

I see your 5-1 bull . What about H2H in the playoffs with both players playing? Oops - forgot about that shiiiiiiiiiiit, did we? You make it sound like Tammy is 5-1 vs Kobe the way you bragging.

LeHype has a cakewalk to the Finals feasting ofv the lEastern Conference. But here he is with a 40% winning percentage in the Finals. Yet you farmers keep pimping him for GOAT? GTFO with that bull son. I thoughthe made his teammates better?

[ambchang]

I see your 5-1 bull . What about H2H in the playoffs with both players playing? Oops - forgot about that shiiiiiiiiiiit, did we? You make it sound like Tammy is 5-1 vs Kobe the way you bragging.

LeHype has a cakewalk to the Finals feasting ofv the lEastern Conference. But here he is with a 40% winning percentage in the Finals. Yet you farmers keep pimping him for GOAT? GTFO with that bull son. I thoughthe made his teammates better?

Great, so Nash > Kobe.

And what matters that he cakewalks to the finals? Is anybody ranking him because of the number of times he made the finals?

With the exception of 2010 and 2011, lebrons team won every time he's supposed to win. And he put up monster stats in 2010.

[LkrFan]

Great, so Nash > Kobe.

And what matters that he cakewalks to the finals? Is anybody ranking him because of the number of times he made the finals?

With the exception of 2010 and 2011, lebrons team won every time he's supposed to win. And he put up monster stats in 2010.

stats. He dominates the ball. He's bigger, faster, and stronger than everybody. He should put up stats. However, he LOST to the WC winner 4 times. By contrast, Kobe WON the WC 7 times. So, maybe Kobe made his teammates better.

All I know is LeHype ball had to be bailed out in '12 & '13 - otherwise his punkass is 0-fer-6, period.

[LkrFan]

Its not a coach in the annals of history that would draw up a play for Harden while Kobe is on the same team.

Truth.

[djohn2oo8]

Truth.

Though what Kobe is one of the worst at making the last shot?

[LkrFan]

Though what Kobe is one of the worst at making the last shot?

You really pimping Bin Harden over Kobe son?

[ambchang]

stats. He dominates the ball. He's bigger, faster, and stronger than everybody. He should put up stats. However, he LOST to the WC winner 4 times. By contrast, Kobe WON the WC 7 times. So, maybe Kobe made his teammates better.

So much better such that Kobe NEVER led the Lakers in any advanced stats in those 5 championship years. That's right, never.

Really, there is no maybe about it, Kobe's teammates are simply better than him. The Lakers offense and defense was built around Shaq, then built around their dominant frontcourt of MVPau and Odom. Watch the games again.

Kobe was essentially the second fiddle of all second fiddles.

And Lebron drags bad teammates to heights they have no business being in, and you are blaming him? That blame falls squarely on management.

You can blame Lebron for running GM, but you know what happened when Kobe tried to be GM, he runs out Shaq and led the Lakers to 3 years of mediocrity. Then the last three years of absolute terror for the Lakers.

So you are basically going on and on and on about how the LAKERS were better than the CAVS, but that has nothing to do with Kobe being better than Lebron, but all the Lakers who are not Kobe better than all those Cavs who are not Lebron.

If you want to give all the credit of the Lakers success to Kobe, then you should place all the blame of the Lakers failure on Kobe too. When did Lebron ever lead his team to anything remotely as bad as Kobe led the Lakers the last few years?

All I know is LeHype ball had to be bailed out in '12 & '13 - otherwise his punkass is 0-fer-6, period.

Shaq won FMVP in 00, 01 and 02, as well as leading the Lakers in almost every single advanced stat. MVPau led the Lakers in almost every single advanced stat in 09 and 10, and in many cases by a significant margin. And you act like Artest didn't nail any shots in 10, or Horry didn't nail clutch shots over the Kings, or the refs didn't give crazy amounts of FTs in elimination games THREE separate times.

Comparing Kobe to Lebron is like comparing McHale to Hakeem. All are great players, but one is an alpha, and the other is a beta.

[LkrFan]

So much better such that Kobe NEVER led the Lakers in any advanced stats in those 5 championship years. That's right, never.

Really, there is no maybe about it, Kobe's teammates are simply better than him. The Lakers offense and defense was built around Shaq, then built around their dominant frontcourt of MVPau and Odom. Watch the games again.

Kobe was essentially the second fiddle of all second fiddles.

And Lebron drags bad teammates to heights they have no business being in, and you are blaming him? That blame falls squarely on management.

You can blame Lebron for running GM, but you know what happened when Kobe tried to be GM, he runs out Shaq and led the Lakers to 3 years of mediocrity. Then the last three years of absolute terror for the Lakers.

So you are basically going on and on and on about how the LAKERS were better than the CAVS, but that has nothing to do with Kobe being better than Lebron, but all the Lakers who are not Kobe better than all those Cavs who are not Lebron.

If you want to give all the credit of the Lakers success to Kobe, then you should place all the blame of the Lakers failure on Kobe too. When did Lebron ever lead his team to anything remotely as bad as Kobe led the Lakers the last few years?



Shaq won FMVP in 00, 01 and 02, as well as leading the Lakers in almost every single advanced stat. MVPau led the Lakers in almost every single advanced stat in 09 and 10, and in many cases by a significant margin. And you act like Artest didn't nail any shots in 10, or Horry didn't nail clutch shots over the Kings, or the refs didn't give crazy amounts of FTs in elimination games THREE separate times.

Comparing Kobe to Lebron is like comparing McHale to Hakeem. All are great players, but one is an alpha, and the other is a beta.

Boiled down:

5/7 >>> 2/6. No way to that . Battier goes nuts shooting wide open 3s in '12. Jim blows a en layup (didn't even try to dunk on...Battier)...Pop takes the TOSB out when all y'all needed was ONE en rebound...Bosh e rebounds it...Ray Ray then went in raw from downtown with no vaseline (pathetic perimeter D BTW). LeHype "wins" his 2nd rang.

He should be 0-fer-6. Stats be damned.

[DMC]

They should

lol Kobe

[ambchang]

Boiled down:

5/7 >>> 2/6. No way to that . Battier goes nuts shooting wide open 3s in '12. Jim blows a en layup (didn't even try to dunk on...Battier)...Pop takes the TOSB out when all y'all needed was ONE en rebound...Bosh e rebounds it...Ray Ray then went in raw from downtown with no vaseline (pathetic perimeter D BTW). LeHype "wins" his 2nd rang.

He should be 0-fer-6. Stats be damned.

Boiled down:

5/6 > 5/7. No way to :downspin that . Shaq goes nuts dunking everything in sight in 00, 01 and 02. Kobe blows shot after shot (didn't even try to pass on ... Tayshaun Prince) ... Jackson wrote a book saying how uncoachable Kobe is .... MVPau rebounds a hundreds and hundreds of missed Kobe shots .... MVPau then takes over the games. Kobe "wins" his 2nd FMVP.

He should be 0-fer-5. Stats be damned.

[LkrFan]

Boiled down:

5/6 > 5/7. No way to :downspin that . Shaq goes nuts dunking everything in sight in 00, 01 and 02. Kobe blows shot after shot (didn't even try to pass on ... Tayshaun Prince) ... Jackson wrote a book saying how uncoachable Kobe is .... MVPau rebounds a hundreds and hundreds of missed Kobe shots .... MVPau then takes over the games. Kobe "wins" his 2nd FMVP.

He should be 0-fer-5. Stats be damned.

[SuperCam]

kudos to ambchang for nuking LkrFan's gotry on this thread