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  1. #76
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    For whatever reasons he was for it Operation Iraqi Freedom was a huge mistake with really bad consequences for the people living in the region and around the world. IMO, the fate of that region was decided the moment we invaded Iraq.
    I partially agree with you. What gets me though, is people still support our meddling in the ME after seeing the fallout of the Iraq war. If we get past the right or wrong of Iraq, it is definitely stupid to support what we have and are doing in Libya, Syria, etc. The strong leaders that we all hate, knew how to keep the terrorists in check. In the name of peace, we made the world worse yet.

    Why can't people learn from past mistakes?

  2. #77
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    The problem is what we see as forming alliances or ties, extremists view as meddling even when what we do doesn't even personally affect them. I don't believe in nation building, but I don't believe in adapting to their definition of what "meddling" actually is. That's because to them, we're infidels. Whether it's through military, political or economical ties or cultural influence, or Israel, we're meddling. To these guys, they're fighting the Holy War, Muslims vs. Christian Crusaders. They're living out an end times prophecy.

    That idea has to be shat on completely by the rest of the world. We can fight that war, but we can't be the face of it like with Iraq. Pretty much everything we should do as far as helping filling these voids with non-extremists needs to be done in conjunction with an Arab league nations, which would have to come from opposite geopolitical sides, putting those differences away, and on the sidelines (but where we can still help significantly).

  3. #78
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    There always has to be a good guy and a bad guy. It makes foreign policy easy.

    Good luck with this in the Middle East hater.

  4. #79
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    There always has to be a good guy and a bad guy. It makes foreign policy easy.

    Good luck with this in the Middle East hater.
    I don't need no steenkin luck.

    Repugs are overwhelmingly, INARGUABLY the Bad Guys for invading Iraq for oil.

  5. #80
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    Putin said it best. Tbh he told the West "you think you are using these groups buts its probably the other way around. They are using you. You think they are savages but they might be smarter than you and you are playing with fire"

  6. #81
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Putin said it best. Tbh he told the West "you think you are using these groups buts its probably the other way around. They are using you. You think they are savages but they might be smarter than you and you are playing with fire"
    So he enters Syria and gets a plane blown up...

  7. #82
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    Russian FM Lavrov: "it(US) looks like a cat who wants to catch the fish but is afraid to get its feet wet"

  8. #83
    Believe.
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    Putin is an autocrat in a one party state with a press dominated by his politbureau. him commenting on it being easier to get support for getting troop deployed is amusing.

    Boris is doing a poor job of propping up the Russian position. Last time I checked they were trying to negotiate so that Assad wouldn't be executed. REgime change looks more and more likely.

  9. #84
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    Yet. Him and Mr Lavrov are dropping truth nukes on US strategy every single day.

  10. #85
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Russian FM Lavrov: "it(US) looks like a cat who wants to catch the fish but is afraid to get its feet wet"
    LOL...

    Explains Obama pretty good!

  11. #86
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    LOL...

    Explains Obama pretty good!
    diskless Repugs love to spill American military blood that is not their owns families' blood, and don't care about the blood of poor white, blacks, browns. Enriching the MIC and its investors is also main motivation.

  12. #87
    Believe.
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    Yet. Him and Mr Lavrov are dropping truth nukes on US strategy every single day.
    And outside of you posting their takes here what effect has it had? We've discussed Putin's strategic situation already.

    German's Poles and Latvians in the North. Turks Brits, Americans, and the French to the south. If you were quoting the Chinese foreign minister it might be interesting.

  13. #88
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    Daily Reminder: Random Cuck Guy has a wife who used to post on here under the alias (Summers). She once admitted to watching BBC porn. They have a kid together. Ignore Degenerate threads, Ignore Degenerate Posts, Ignore Degenerate Posters.

  14. #89
    Believe.
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    I sense a meltdown coming on.

  15. #90
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    horrible as Assad is, we knew as early as 2013 that any viable moderate opposition had vanished and that we were arming extremists in Syria.

    Sy Hersh with the scuttlebutt:

    Barack Obama’s repeated insistence that Bashar al-Assad must leave office – and that there are ‘moderate’ rebel groups in Syria capable of defeating him – has in recent years provoked quiet dissent, and even overt opposition, among some of the most senior officers on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff. Their criticism has focused on what they see as the administration’s fixation on Assad’s primary ally, Vladimir Putin. In their view, Obama is captive to Cold War thinking about Russia and China, and hasn’t adjusted his stance on Syria to the fact both countries share Washington’s anxiety about the spread of terrorism in and beyond Syria; like Washington, they believe that Islamic State must be stopped.


    The military’s resistance dates back to the summer of 2013, when a highly classified assessment, put together by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then led by General Martin Dempsey, forecast that the fall of the Assad regime would lead to chaos and, potentially, to Syria’s takeover by jihadi extremists, much as was then happening in Libya. A former senior adviser to the Joint Chiefs told me that the do ent was an ‘all-source’ appraisal, drawing on information from signals, satellite and human intelligence, and took a dim view of the Obama administration’s insistence on continuing to finance and arm the so-called moderate rebel groups. By then, the CIA had been conspiring for more than a year with allies in the UK, Saudi Arabia and Qatar to ship guns and goods – to be used for the overthrow of Assad – from Libya, via Turkey, into Syria. The new intelligence estimate singled out Turkey as a major impediment to Obama’s Syria policy. The do ent showed, the adviser said, ‘that what was started as a covert US programme to arm and support the moderate rebels fighting Assad had been co-opted by Turkey, and had morphed into an across-the-board technical, arms and logistical programme for all of the opposition, including Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic State. The so-called moderates had evaporated and the Free Syrian Army was a rump group stationed at an airbase in Turkey.’ The assessment was bleak: there was no viable ‘moderate’ opposition to Assad, and the US was arming extremists.


    Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, director of the DIA between 2012 and 2014, confirmed that his agency had sent a constant stream of classified warnings to the civilian leadership about the dire consequences of toppling Assad. The jihadists, he said, were in control of the opposition. Turkey wasn’t doing enough to stop the smuggling of foreign fighters and weapons across the border. ‘If the American public saw the intelligence we were producing daily, at the most sensitive level, they would go ballistic,’ Flynn told me. ‘We understood Isis’s long-term strategy and its campaign plans, and we also discussed the fact that Turkey was looking the other way when it came to the growth of the Islamic State inside Syria.’ The DIA’s reporting, he said, ‘got enormous pushback’ from the Obama administration. ‘I felt that they did not want to hear the truth.’
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour...ry-to-military

  16. #91
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    RG: isn't it possible Assad is preferable to to the present alternatives?

  17. #92
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    the details on US/Syria relations are eye-opening. worth a read.

  18. #93
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    General Dempsey and his colleagues on the Joint Chiefs of Staff kept their dissent out of bureaucratic channels, and survived in office. General Michael Flynn did not. ‘Flynn incurred the wrath of the White House by insisting on telling the truth about Syria,’ said Patrick Lang, a retired army colonel who served for nearly a decade as the chief Middle East civilian intelligence officer for the DIA. ‘He thought truth was the best thing and they shoved him out. He wouldn’t shut up.’ Flynn told me his problems went beyond Syria. ‘I was shaking things up at the DIA – and not just moving deckchairs on the anic. It was radical reform. I felt that the civilian leadership did not want to hear the truth. I suffered for it, but I’m OK with that.’ In a recent interview in Der Spiegel, Flynn was blunt about Russia’s entry into the Syrian war: ‘We have to work constructively with Russia. Whether we like it or not, Russia made a decision to be there and to act militarily. They are there, and this has dramatically changed the dynamic. So you can’t say Russia is bad; they have to go home. It’s not going to happen. Get real.’

  19. #94
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    Read that Hersh piece. A lot of it makes some sense based on the leaked do ents and comments by various Pentagon heads.

    I also agree with Hersh premise that it was a good thing Pentagon went behind Obombers back to strike a deal with Assad/Putin

  20. #95
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    This also explains a lot why Mccain and that other got raised up a storm and even travelled to Syria and Iraq in support of the terrorists

  21. #96
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    RG: isn't it possible Assad is preferable to to the present alternatives?
    USA "regime changing" in the Middle East and North Africa has been huge success, going back to Iran in 1953, and then Chile 1973, etc, etc. Why stop now?
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 12-21-2015 at 04:18 PM.

  22. #97
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    USA "regime changing" in the Middle East and North Africa has been huge success, going back to Iran in 1953, and then Chile 1973, etc, etc. Why stop now?
    Furthermore and to the point of the OP, since when has the US cared about evidence of crimes against humanity? They had more than enough evidence to bury pinochet when he was arrested by Spain but waited for him to die to release it, even when his regime killed us citizens, in Chile and in Washington DC. They protected their guy, like usual, crimes against humanity be damned

  23. #98
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    Furthermore and to the point of the OP, since when has the US cared about evidence of crimes against humanity? They had more than enough evidence to bury pinochet when he was arrested by Spain but waited for him to die to release it, even when his regime killed us citizens, in Chile and in Washington DC. They protected their guy, like usual, crimes against humanity be damned
    So why are we so insistent on human rights violations in China? We clearly pick and choose our battles on human rights. When we think we have some leverage, we have acted. Again, it's simplistic to say we don't ever give a . Mainly because it's not true.

  24. #99
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    So why are we so insistent on human rights violations in China? We clearly pick and choose our battles on human rights. When we think we have some leverage, we have acted. Again, it's simplistic to say we don't ever give a . Mainly because it's not true.
    You answered yourself, US cares about leverage vs opponents, not crimes against humanity.

  25. #100
    Believe.
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    Furthermore and to the point of the OP, since when has the US cared about evidence of crimes against humanity? They had more than enough evidence to bury pinochet when he was arrested by Spain but waited for him to die to release it, even when his regime killed us citizens, in Chile and in Washington DC. They protected their guy, like usual, crimes against humanity be damned
    Kissinger getting the peace prize is the most ironic incident of the modern era.

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