Best "two way" player

[SpursforSix]

When I watch Kawhi play his game reminds me of MJ from '95-'98 just less athletic and not as good of a ball handler. The first part there's not much Kawhi can do to fix that. He has above average athletic ability but not super athletic ability. Athleticism is very important for a perimeter player when it comes to being a dominant scorer. The greatest perimeter scorers tended to be super athletic freaks. Guys like Lebron,Durant,Wade,Kobe,Tmac,Westbrook all have that super athletic ability that gave them a quick first step along with being great finishers around the rim. I will say Kawhi has learned to make great acrobatic lay ups around the rim but he can't get up as high as those guys. Kawhi no matter how hard he works will never have the leaping ability or the great quickness those guys had that allows for infinite opportunities to score. When it comes to ball handling skills Kawhi has gotten a lot better but he still has room for improvement. There are times when he drives I have notice he gets stripped or loses the ball. I think that's the part where Kawhi will get better at knowing his work ethic. Kawhi's offensive game as it is right now I don't believe he could be a guy who could score 27-30 per a game consistently even if Pop let him go unhinged.

Kawhi and Durant have roughly the same vertical.

[daslicer]

It's important to remember that Tim was better in his rookie year than Kawhi is now. That's how legendary Tim is.

And to put his MVP years in perspective, he was averaging over 25 & 12. Actually there's only one player this season (DeMarcus Cousins with 27 & 11.6) who is averaging more than Duncan's career numbers (let's not even mention peak). Duncan was a monster in an era with legit HoF bigs. Prime Duncan now would be killing everybody. I'm quite sure the media and fans would react exactly the same way they did before, maybe even more as there would be no compe ion.

I would also add that Duncan could have scored 30-10 per game in his prime but didn't do it because he knew overall how to win games. Duncan always had the perfect balance when it came to scoring. He knew when he had to score 30 plus to win a game and when to dial back and just drop 20. I remember a good friend of mine whose a Laker fan used to call Duncan the great quota machine back in his prime because according to him you knew if Tim only had 2 points after 3 quarters he was going to go ham in the 4 quarter and get at least 20.

[daslicer]

Kawhi and Durant have roughly the same vertical.

I looked it up you are almost right but Durant edges out Kawhi by .5 plus he's a legit 6'10 which helps when it comes to scoring. If you look up the verticals of all those other guys they are all greater than Kawhi's by several inches.

[SPURt]

It's important to remember that Tim was better in his rookie year than Kawhi is now. That's how legendary Tim is.

And to put his MVP years in perspective, he was averaging over 25 & 12. Actually there's only one player this season (DeMarcus Cousins with 27 & 11.6) who is averaging more than Duncan's career numbers (let's not even mention peak). Duncan was a monster in an era with legit HoF bigs. Prime Duncan now would be killing everybody. I'm quite sure the media and fans would react exactly the same way they did before, maybe even more as there would be no compe ion.

I'm not arguing Kawhi is better than prime Tim. I was referencing Tim's demeanor. I almost feel like the wrong team would've tried to push a rookie Tim Duncan to add a three to his game.

[SPURt]

When I watch Kawhi play his game reminds me of MJ from '95-'98 just less athletic and not as good of a ball handler. The first part there's not much Kawhi can do to fix that. He has above average athletic ability but not super athletic ability. Athleticism is very important for a perimeter player when it comes to being a dominant scorer. The greatest perimeter scorers tended to be super athletic freaks. Guys like Lebron,Durant,Wade,Kobe,Tmac,Westbrook all have that super athletic ability that gave them a quick first step along with being great finishers around the rim. I will say Kawhi has learned to make great acrobatic lay ups around the rim but he can't get up as high as those guys. Kawhi no matter how hard he works will never have the leaping ability or the great quickness those guys had that allows for infinite opportunities to score. When it comes to ball handling skills Kawhi has gotten a lot better but he still has room for improvement. There are times when he drives I have notice he gets stripped or loses the ball. I think that's the part where Kawhi will get better at knowing his work ethic. Kawhi's offensive game as it is right now I don't believe he could be a guy who could score 27-30 per a game consistently even if Pop let him go unhinged.

I agree that Kawhi's greatest weakness compared to other great players now is his handles, though much improved. I do think he could get over 27 ppg though. The last few weeks Kawhi has gotten over that mark a lot and it's within the offense. It would be weird however to see him go off for 50+

[will_spurs]

I almost feel like the wrong team would've tried to push a rookie Tim Duncan to add a three to his game.

Well it's a different league today...

[daslicer]

Just looked up Manu's vertical which is 38 inches pretty amazing.

[Obstructed_View]

What part of Kawhi's game precludes him from being considered an elite scorer? People are coming on and saying Kawhi just isn't a great scorer without any real analysis.

He's an elite defender, and an elite rebounder for his position. As for scoring, you'd have to say he's an incredibly consistent good scorer, which is a step down from a great scorer, and another step down from an elite scorer. Not a terribly complicated analysis.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't care what Lebron was in the past, this year Kawhi has been a better offensive player. We've already seen what happens between Lebron and Kawhi head to head. Your statement Kawhi is a tier below Lebron I just don't agree with.

And this is why I dread having these kinds of conversations, because the new crop of Kawhi fans are completely and utterly ing delusional.

[Obstructed_View]

I would also add that Duncan could have scored 30-10 per game in his prime but didn't do it because he knew overall how to win games. Duncan always had the perfect balance when it came to scoring. He knew when he had to score 30 plus to win a game and when to dial back and just drop 20. I remember a good friend of mine whose a Laker fan used to call Duncan the great quota machine back in his prime because according to him you knew if Tim only had 2 points after 3 quarters he was going to go ham in the 4 quarter and get at least 20.

Duncan's record when he scores over 35 points in a game is just under .500.

[daslicer]

And this is why I dread having these kinds of conversations, because the new crop of Kawhi fans are completely and utterly ing delusional.

Agreed they really believe he's going to be like a Duncan GOAT type of player when he's far from it.

[daslicer]

Duncan's record when he scores over 35 points in a game is just under .500.

That is true I remember a lot of times when he scored 40 plus the Spurs would lose but still the point is when Duncan had to get 30 or more he could do it. The Lakers and Mav's series are the best example of that.

[Obstructed_View]

Agreed they really believe he's going to be like a Duncan GOAT type of player when he's far from it.

I have no problem with someone saying that he could be, or predicting that he will be, but we've got people saying that he's as good as Duncan or Robinson or Lebron NOW, which is ing ludicrous. I gave him a nod over Pippen based on intangibles, but I'm probably going to regret it because now the Kobhi Leonard fans are going to think he's already a ing hall of famer.

[SpursFan86]

And this is why I dread having these kinds of conversations, because the new crop of Kawhi fans are completely and utterly ing delusional.

Kawhi is already better than D-Rob, tbh...good chance he passes Tim within the next few years as well...

[Obstructed_View]

That is true I remember a lot of times when he scored 40 plus the Spurs would lose but still the point is when Duncan had to get 30 or more he could do it. The Lakers and Mav's series are the best example of that.

Yeah, the most I think I ever saw Duncan score in a game I attended was the Dairy Queen game, and I think he had 29 and 17 before fouling out.

[tonight...you]

Kawhi Leonard is THE total package on par with nobody.
That guy takes over games as much as Curry and affects game-plans even more-so than Curry since coaches have to account for both his offense and his historic defense.
Curry's own coach has to game-plan Curry's defense to mitigate his limitations.

Curry is out of this solar system on offense. It's insane, but Kawhi influences the game just as much as Curry on a more per second/per second level since he has to accounted for on both sides of the floor every single possession.
That priceless.

[Dro210]

we're only talking about potential and that isn't going to cut it with the media and casual fans.

It's not potential, it's very, very real... and who cares what casuals and the media think? Popular opinion is generally an idiots opinion, because people are generally idiots. I don't need some media talkinghead or got from reddit, who watch highlights and think they're smart because they found out about advanced stats, to agree with me before what I know is validated.... I listened to dumbasses try to tell us Kobe was better than Timmy for 16 years before they finally had to shut up. It was never true tho, ever. Anybody who tries to tell me they'd rather have any player in the world over Kawhi Leonard gets laughed at in their face, especially the ones that say Curry. Where those Anthony Davis peeps at right now? They still taking him over Kawhi? lol. I'd rather have Towns... Hypetrains tend to derail, Kawhi is a rocketship. It's in the work ethic. Curry has the work ethic, it's why he is where he is now, but his body limits him on the other end and he's also topped out. This is the tippy top of the peak, and it's aided by unreasonable factors.... LeBron is and always has been incredible, but Kawhi IS better now. That's not a knock on LeBron. He's in his 30s and has played a million games. Kawhi is entering his prime, LeBron is leaving his (he's far from done being elite tho, not saying that at all). Kawhi shoots 50% from deep, LeBron couldn't throw it in the ocean from 23' these days. I kinda hope the Cavs can make it, so Kawhi and the Spurs can get the best of him yet again, but I don't think they'll even get there..... And for those that still constantly underrate Kawhi's playmaking, you're wrong. It's just not true anymore that that's a hole in his game. Just because he's not running point forward and showing it off all the time, doesn't mean it's not there. He's erasing all the flaws, he gets better every night. WATCH. All you have to do is go back to Saturday night to see it plain as day. 2 of the plays he made feeding LaMarcus alone were among the prettiest I've seen out of the team all year. He's not LeBron level in that category, but LeBron is one of the greatest/smartest, most natural playmakers to ever pick up the rock. (It's always been such a wasted advantage to play him at SF imo, even if he was the defacto ballhandler. Just asinine to put a 6' scoring guard out there (Boobie, Jones, Mo, Kyrie, etc) with that guy. At least Rio could play a little defense, but still a huge waste. Put somebody with size and a decent outside shot at the 3, and have a 6'9 270lb greatest PG of all-time)

As for not being an elite scorer... Don't confuse his usage for his effectiveness. I'd say his percentages say otherwise. He's basically 50/50/90 and has become one of the best finishers around the rim, that's the rarest air there is. He's creating his own buckets too, he can still hardly even get our boy Tony to pass him the ball. Curry has everybody's sense of reality warped right now, because he's allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play. I've been saying that since 2013. He's not the only one that can do it, he's the only one that has the green light to do it. It's been a cause for great success, but it'll be their downfall too. It's not how the game is played. It would have gotten them beat last year if they had played anybody worth even half a .

Just looked up Manu's vertical which is 38 inches pretty amazing.

Yea, Manu was a freak... I remember reading a scouting report back then that said he had Ray Allen's scoring ability with dunk contest hops. I was excited from that day forward, and he didn't disappoint.... He doesn't still get up that high tho, lol, those are likely draft numbers

[Obstructed_View]

Kawhi Leonard is THE total package on par with nobody.
That guy takes over games as much as Curry and affects game-plans even more-so than Curry since coaches have to account for both his offense and his historic defense.
Curry's own coach has to game-plan Curry's defense to mitigate his limitations.

Curry is out of this solar system on offense. It's insane, but Kawhi influences the game just as much as Curry on a more per second/per second level since he has to accounted for on both sides of the floor every single possession.
That priceless.

Except that the Spurs' historic defense fell off a cliff when Duncan sat out. Wah wah.

[tonight...you]

Except that the Spurs' historic defense fell off a cliff when Duncan sat out. Wah wah.

Takes more than one player to make a team have a "historic defense" and I was talking about his individual defense, not the team. Good show on that goof.
Of course Duncan sitting would affect the Team's D. Tell me more!

[GSH]

I don't get how it's an insult. Everybody loves offense, and Curry is the best offensive player in the game right now. The people saying "two-way" are reminding everyone that defense counts, too. They're giving him credit for at least being in the running for best player. If judged on offense alone, Curry wins hands-down.

As for those talking about what a good defender Curry is (and everyone "knows" that Draymond is a DPOY contender, right?) - the Spurs are blowing away the league with 92.6 opponent PPG. Try doing that with Curry and Draymond, but without Kawhi. Oh, wait... they are. The Warriors are giving up 12 PPG more than the Spurs.

The Spurs' defense isn't just about Kawhi. But the Warriors' aren't giving up that many PPG because Curry is such a great defender, either.

[will_spurs]

coaches have to account for [Kawhi's] offense.

Nobody is changing their gameplan based on Kawhi's offense. Nobody. Defense is another thing entirely.

Curry has everybody's sense of reality warped right now, because he's allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play.

Curry has exactly the same green light (or license to kill) than the rest of the elite players. Same as Kobe had, same as Lebron, Durant, Westbrook.

The difference is that he's actually making shots (and especially contested shots) that nobody has ever made in the history of basketball. Being "allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play" didn't give him range...

[dabom]

Takes more than one player to make a team have a "historic defense" and I was talking about his individual defense, not the team. Good show on that goof.
Of course Duncan sitting would affect the Team's D. Tell me more!

[tonight...you]

Nobody is changing their gameplan based on Kawhi's offense. Nobody. Defense is another thing entirely.

Total BS. That is just stupid. He gets double teamed in multiple ways. Tell me that's not planned. Holy crap...

Curry has exactly the same green light (or license to kill) than the rest of the elite players. Same as Kobe had, same as Lebron, Durant, Westbrook.

The difference is that he's actually making shots (and especially contested shots) that nobody has ever made in the history of basketball. Being "allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play" didn't give him range...

No argument here.

[Dro210]

Curry has exactly the same green light (or license to kill) than the rest of the elite players. Same as Kobe had, same as Lebron, Durant, Westbrook.

The difference is that he's actually making shots (and especially contested shots) that nobody has ever made in the history of basketball. Being "allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play" didn't give him range...

Nah brotha, not even close, nobody has taken the shots he takes. It's a credit to him that he's such a cold shooter that he can rightfully get away with it in the big picture, but it's still bad basketball a lot of the time..... I never saw The Pistol live, and the game was different then, but Gilbert Arenas for a stretch was the only guy in my lifetime even close to similar when it comes to pulling some of the stuff he does.

No ones gonna denying his range, or that he's a great shooter.

[SPURt]

I have no problem with someone saying that he could be, or predicting that he will be, but we've got people saying that he's as good as Duncan or Robinson or Lebron NOW, which is ing ludicrous. I gave him a nod over Pippen based on intangibles, but I'm probably going to regret it because now the Kobhi Leonard fans are going to think he's already a ing hall of famer.

that's not what we're saying. We're saying this year 2016 Lebron. The above quote you called me ing delusional in was me saying I don't care what Lebron was in his prime but referring to this year. I'm saying I would prefer Kawhi this year to Lebron on offense. In a three point happy NBA Lebron is shooting like balls from 3.

In no way am I saying Kawhi is better at 24 than prime Lebron, Tim, or D Rob.