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Nitpicking at misspelled words. Very impressive.
I stand by my thoughts about Bowen - Ray and Manu. You do realize Bowen is already going to love minutes this year to Finley -and to Bones -- lots of them ? And the Spurs won't miss a beat - Manu can guard anyone the league as well if not better than Bowen.
You do realize that Rasho will get about 10 minutes a game and if you think he wasnt on the trading block this summer I would have to say you are crazy. Nazr mohammed will get most of those minutes and I wouldn't be suprised to see a trade before the all-star deadline involving Rasho.
It is okay to be a fan and not wear silver and black colored glasses.
This weekend when I drive back into San Antonio and we go play ball down with Jerry Soto and Henry Yzaquirre or maybe we head up to Randolph to play some ball - Hopefully some of you guys play in those places so we can meet and discuss hoops and play a little.
Nitpicking at misspelled words. Very impressive.
Talk to Kori. She sets up or knows about periodic basketball GTGs. If there's one on, there will usually be a thread about it.
Finley will get Devin and Barry's minutes from last season. Manu and Bowen's minutes will stay relatively steady. Barry will get just spot minutes unless he really steps up his game.You do realize Bowen is already going to love minutes this year to Finley -and to Bones -- lots of them ?
I call shenanigans.Bowen doesn't shut down anyone.
finley will get devin and barrys minutes? Where are Barry's minutes going to go then ? Finley and Barry will both get minutes and they wont take them away from Manu they will come from Bowen and maybe Parker if Pop lets Bones run some point.
Allen's a badass when his vagina isn't hurting but he'd be pretty much a marginal improvement for the Spurs over Finley. All things considered, I'd rather go with Bowen + Finley than Ray Ray. Losing Bowen would cost the defense its soul.
The Spurs usually run (especially late in the season) a 3-man rotation at the swing spots with the fourth guy getting spot minutes. The rotation will be Bowen-Manu-Finley and Barry getting spot minutes unless there's injuries or someone's game declines rapidly or exceeds expectations.finley will get devin and barrys minutes? Where are Barry's minutes going to go then ? Finley and Barry will both get minutes and they wont take them away from Manu they will come from Bowen and maybe Parker if Pop lets Bones run some point.
Pop said on Media Day that he's going to manage Manu's minutes very closely. So probably in the beginning of the season, he may see a little less than average minutes and Finley/Barry might get a little extra.
BINGO!!!!
and about the whinning. EVERYBODY in the league not named Rasho Nesterovic complains about calls
Bowen doesn't shut down anyone.
Game 1 of NBA Western Conf. Finals - Bruce Bowen shuts down Shawn Marion.
http://www.nba.com/games/20050522/SASPHO/boxscore.html
Bowen basically turned Marion into a rebounder because he became a non-open, non-factor offensively.
Games 2, 3, 4 and 5 weren't much better for Marion averaging 7.8 ppg in 40.2 min./game for the series. He averaged over 23 ppg in the prior 6-game series vs. Dallas. Both the Dallas series and SA series were uptempo, high-scoring affairs.
The guy is suckmywokandi Supersized but comes with a garbage bag to catch his lazy limited talent game for the season.jerome james would be an upgrade
As for Ray Allen, a talented player for sure, but in a game where balance is king, his jumper would be relegated to situational shots just like Bruce, just like Brent, and just like Fin. If you think he should take away shots from Tim & Manu, well...I disagree.
Could it be that they're tired of watching the team they back get their ass kicked on a regular basis? That was Dirk that I saw go postal on his own teammate for letting Nash get off an uncontested 3 eh. Sportswriters need to write about something. Maybe that's why they say the same here in California except here, they roast the out of Kobe because it sells papers.I work up in Dallas a lot and the sports guys up in Dallas say that Tim, Manu, Tony and Bowen all whine and cry about everything.
Look, for the type of in-your-face D that Bruce plays it's a necessity to counter the tricks that the premier scorer in the L try to get away with to get that shot off. They push and clear and use physical, sometimes illegal, to get that space.Manu plays honest on ball defense and still gets in the passing lanes - helps and he will give it to you on the offensive end. I will take his defense over Bowens any day.
You can't ask Manu to play that type of D for as long and as intense as Bruce does and still have the same effort on the O side. That's why Bowen's role is so pivotal.
This is still a contact sport and for every whine about an O player not getting space for his shot, there is a D player in his jock pushing the edges between legal and illegal contact. The ref makes the call. That is how it's done. You can see the same type of spirited D-they love playing it this hard- in the forms of Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncreif, Dennis Rodman, Bill Russell...et al. Players who had reps for their tenacity on the D side of the ball.
It ain't pretty but as long as there is a need for D in this game, there will always be players like Bruce playing it.
Okay-now you've irked me.Ray's percentage dropped because of his injury and I in no way shape or form take anything away from what Bowen does on the floor.
Let's see, well use Ray's last 2 games against Bruce before the playoffs to see how well he shoots against Bruce. I don't know how you can't see the beauty of Bruce holding players to around 1 point per shot. You can say Ray averages 24 per but if it takes him 24 shots to get it, that ain't very effective:
Taking the "injury" playoff series out of the equation, let's go with Ray's previous 2 games against the Spurs.
On 12-8-04 At Seattle
Allen goes 9-19 and scores 29
On 3-30-05 At SBC
Allen goes 6-17 and score 14
Total those up:
Ray went 15-36 scored 43
43/36 = 1.19 per shot
Against the rest of the L?
Ray shoots for the season:
1867 points/ 1494 total shots = 1.25
That 1.19 is Bruce is holding him down.
For his entire playoffs:
Ray went 1.35
But against the Spurs? 129 points / 108 shot = 1.19 looks
like Bruce kept him to where he was...Hurt or not hurt, the result stays the same.
Got you. I talked to Hank Egan for a few minutes and asked him who plays the best perimeter D and he said Bruce Bowen, then he added Tayshaun Prince because of his length. He said Artest was a strong positional player as well. So I asked 1 and he disagrees with your assesment.I can also guarantee you that if you asked any coach and or player in the NBA who plays the best perimeter defense they will not universally name Artest and Bowen.
Aside from Prince and Kirilenko, the rest of those guys are people who ac ulate steals. They're great at playing the passing lanes but when it comes down to locking it down? They don't. Why because they need to expend more energy on the O. That's just the way it is. They have their roles,Bruce has his.I assure you that Kobe will be in there - Iverson will be in there as will Larry Hughes, Mcgrady and a few others like T. Prince, Andre Kirileinko.
That's why there is an ALL-NBA D team. The votes are cast wide and varied and for the last 4 years, the guy has been ALL-NBA D. Kobe's lack of D got him booted after 5 straight selections, Have you seen the la"K"ers record last season when they give up 100 points to an opponent? It sucked.. Welcome to not having an interior presence.There will be no universal choice - maybe Artest but I doubt it. Bowen is good at what he does and he is effective but people won't pick him because they will be able to rest on defense. He doesnt make people work on defense so they save all their energy for offense.
As for Kobe being able to lock up anybody anytime?
At the conclusion of that play, Phil called a timeout and berated the out of Kobe for his inability to lock Manu down. And thinking back to last season, outside of Michael Redd, the rest of the SG's he faced weren't locked down at all. Is it fair that he has to do that and run the offense too? Life's not fair, but hey he wanted his own team. He ain't all that and last season, he wasn't even ALL-NBA.
But hey whatever, just because you got to rep in mag YOUR OPINION. If Lang would've chosen me, I would've called it straight but I RECOGNIZE that there are DEFINED ROLES for EVERY player. Bruce's offensive game is limited to 2 reasons, Pop and then the fact that there are better options on the team. It's not like he can't score, it's more like as a 4.5 option, does he really need to shoot more? Only when that 3 is spot-on. Other than that, that defense is all Pop asks for, he asks the same of Rasho but, well...that's another long post.
Last edited by Man In Black; 10-08-2005 at 10:14 AM.
Hi, you must be new to Spurs fandom. Will you be needing a kiddie seat on the bandwagon?
I am not new to anything as I have followed the Spurs since the 80's and played with or against most of them.
As for Man in Black - Jerome James is lazy and now that he got paid he has the potential to do an Issac Austin imitation - but he was killing the Spurs and can he really be worse than Rasho ? Seriously - and Isn't Ray an upgrade?
The Mavs - I don't know that they get their ase kicked - I mean 3 years back the Spurs were a Steve Kerr away from getting ousted by those Mavs and if Cuban had any patience to let his team gel and get some chemistry they would have been better off. 50+ games does not transalte to getting your ase kicked.
Bruce does play solid D and he is a pest - in your shirt defense but my opinion is my opinion and I will take Manu over Bowen and Bring Ray Allen on board. I would do it in a minute. Bowen is 34 years old remember and anybody who has that tall guy from the Virgin Islands behind them to back them up - doesn't have to produce anything on offense - well they can adfford to be aggressive on the jumpshot because they always - always have help with the drive on this roster. Yeah you can tell Bowen likes to play D because that is how he gets paid. that is his niche that sets him apart from other players. - as far as your list - alvin robertson and sidney moncrief gave it to you on the other end of the court too and I played against Alvin and his defense wasn't that great - saw my boy dwight govan light him up in city league for 40. Bruce does his job well on this team - but it is easier to play D on this team than most because of the structure and TIm - Bruce has been on 6 teams - which included being waived and signed by the heat numerous times - as well as the Celtics and traded to the bulls as a throw in and then waived. he was all D 1st team once - last year. - give me manu.
Dont birng statistics reflecting bruce against ray and then against the rest of the L - I am sure I could pull statistice for ray against a certain team that reflect he shoots worse against them - statistics are easily manipulated especially in the sense that you used them -- break them down by each team - not by the L
You found one out of 100's and you want to call it a day - money i asked andre miller and he said Billups. - and ask hank that in front of lebron and see what he says - besides isnt this his first year ?
Have you seen Kobes roster?> I hate Kobe but he is the best guard in the L and lets take a look at those statistics you like and all nba teams at the end of this year.
you put in one play of Manu rocking Kobe off the dribble around a pick? First off - I like Manu and he can go by anyone - bruce - kobe - whomever -- like I said - Kobe has the ability to lock anyone down.
Bruce cannot score - you think bruce has it in his game to take people off the dribble and create his own shot ? no and pop isn;t asking hardly anything of Rasho because Rasho can't seem to give it. Hence the Mohammed trade and I bet before the all-star break the spurs will make another move.
Are you truly this dense? I mean really? Do you just sit and play PlayStation or watch SportsCenter to reach opinions about the quality of NBA talent?
James was "destroying" the Spurs not because of anything he was doing, but because the Spurs struggled for one night to defend the pick and roll and James got 7 dunks. That had very little to do with Jerome James and everything to do with the Spurs constant struggles with pick and roll defense. It's not as if James was beating double teams or taking guys in the post. At that, James only had 3 rebounds in that game. Truly an amazing performance: 7 uncontested dunks and 3 rebounds. I'm convinced.
Actually, I'm not. So I went back to the numbers for that series -- yes, not just one, but all 6 games of it. Here are Jerome James' numbers for the entire series on a game-by-game basis:
Game 1: 2-8 FG; 4 pts; 2 reb.
Game 2: 4-9 FG; 8 pts; 7 reb.
Game 3: 7-7 FG; 15 pts; 3 reb. (this makes him a superstar, I guess)
Game 4: 0-6 FG; 4 pts; 6 reb. (so much for supers om)
Game 5: 4-10 FG; 10 pts; 2 reb.
Game 6: 4-9 FG; 10 pts; 8 reb.
TOTAL: 21-49 FG (.429); 8.5 ppg; 4.7 rpg.
Now who wouldn't want a 7 footer who can shoot almost 43% from the floor and get almost 5 rebounds per game? And how on Earth could Rasho Nesterovic ever match that kind of output? I mean, has he ever played 6 games and ac ulated such remarkable numbers? Ever?
Well, the answer to that question is, um-hum.
Here are Rasho's numbers from a stretch of 6 consecutive games in 2003-04 (which included 4 games against 2004 playoff teams), just one short season ago:
vs. DEN: 10-18 FG; 20 pts; 12 reb; 0 ast; 2 blk
vs. MEM: 9-12 FG; 18 pts; 10 reb; 1 ast; 5 blk
vs. SEA: 6-15 FG; 12 pts; 12 reb; 1 ast; 2 blk
vs. DAL: 6-12 FG; 13 pts; 15 reb; 5 ast; 7 blk
vs. PNX: 11-14 FG; 22 pts; 13 reb; 5 ast; 1 blk
vs. MEM: 6-13 FG; 13 pts; 13 reb.; 1 ast; 6 blk
TOTAL: 48-84 FG (.571); 16.3 ppg; 12.5 rpg; 2.2 apg; 3.8 bpg
I'll agree that Rasho won't always put up those kinds of numbers; , I'll agree that Rasho might never put up those kinds of numbers again. But, the fact is that he has done that in the NBA, and done it recently.
Did Rasho have a bad season in 2004-05? Absolutely.
Does it mean that one good game by Jerome James is somehow proof that James is better than Rasho? Absolutely not.
You'd have to be really unconcerned with what really matters to the Spurs style of basketball to not see that.
Ray was trying to gain an advantage by getting the Zebras to keep a closer eye on Bowen. In watching the way the games were called, it worked for a while. But as the series moved on, it became clear, it was the Sonics interior who were the thugs. Bruce was allowed more room to play tough defense, and Ray wilted like a pansey in the heat of crunch time.
No wonder you take up for Ray's crying. To claim his "injury" caused his drop in production more than Bruce and company, is a laugh. As they say, birds of a feather ....
In game one, Ray did have a very minor tweak to his ankle. But his sitting like a little girl was more so because the Spurs were manhandling the Sonics, than some dilibating injury that should have kept him off the floor.
Ray was able to cut at will on his ankle for the rest of the series, This fact demonstrates his "injury" was not the cause of a drop in production. He was "Bowened" plain and simple.
Ray let Bruce get completely in his head before the series even started. Look back at all the contact Ray tried to initiate and all the exaggerated flopping about from the slightest contact in a rather vain attempt to get the refs to take Bruce out of the game (considering the punishment doled out by the Sonics' big men, the impotence of his gesticulations were understandable). Ray probably took himself out of the game as much as Bruce's D did, but that was because of Bruce too.
The guy's info on 2 summers ago isn't quite accurately portrayed. The Spurs never even talked to Olowakandi and Pop rented a car and drove across 3 Republics of the former Yugoslavia to meet with Rasho as soon as possible. MAybe RC wasn't so hot on him, but Pop wanted him here alot. Rasho was at the top of Pop's list of FA's that summer.
Dude... Seriously...I suggest you should take your mouth off of Manu's right now... While I agree that Manu's defense is underrated, Bowen at 35 still >> Manu
I'm surprised you haven't realized that 100% of the posters here disagree with your takes. Does that say anything to you?
And if you somehow think that you are Galileo Galilei... That it's you trying to convince the world that you are right... Well.... Theres one major difference between the both of you.... Galileo wasn't an idiot.
Bruce Bowen was a great defender prior to coming to the Spurs system.
His last season with Miami, he average 32 mpg and he was the only wing from the East to make the NBA All-Defensive Team that season. In fact, no true wings were on the 1st team. Christie and Bowen were the only ones and they were both on the 2nd team.
http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/awards0...#all-defensive
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive Team
(29 coaches select first and second teams by position - maximum 56 points)
First Team
Pos Player Points (first place votes)
G Jason Kidd (Pho) ........ 39 (14)
G Gary Payton (Sea) ....... 38 (17)
F Tim Duncan (SA) ......... 40 (19)
F Kevin Garnett (Min) ..... 24 (9)
C Dikembe Mutombo (Phi) ... 43 (19)
Second Team
Pos Player Points (first place votes)
G Kobe Bryant (LAL) ....... 26 (9)
G Doug Christie (Sac) ..... 20 (6)
F Bruce Bowen (Mia) ....... 18 (7)
F P.J. Brown (Cha) ........ 13 (4)
C Shaquille O'Neal (LAL) .. 17 (5)
You know you are wrong regarding something to do with Manu's game when the "Church of Manu" don't agree with you. Also, it's pretty obvious that the guy defending the article, is the guy that wrote the actual article, so he is coming on here and defending it.
How cool of him.
Very objective arguments. Wait, what is this? What is there to back up your statements? How about nothing?
The Spurs are based on defense, Ray Allen can't even compare to Bowen on defense. Ray Allen is better than Bowen on offense, and by a LOT, but the Spurs don't need any more offense, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker have that covered already.
Ray Allen requires screens to set him free, and he requires to ball to be effective. The Spurs don't run that sort of offense. So how would the Spurs adding Allen improve them? Care to back up your statements, MR. basketball genius?
I am not even going to address Jerome James, it's simply laughable.
Dude....you are in the wrong place for that.dont question me
It looks like I picked the wrong week to give up reading lame takes.
childish - childish - childish - bowen is 35. - allen does not need any screens to get open - are you an idiot ? dude can and does create his own shots at will and the fact that a select group of people disagree with me doesn't affect me at all. that is the beauty of an opinion - especially one based on basketball talents of individual players - purely hyupothetical = besides - how can i respect your opinion when i would be busting your ase all day if we were to ever play ball ?
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