Tony Parker

[Splits]

[DPG21920]

TP has been playing very well this series. He hasn't gone "unplayable" yet.

I have no doubt that "good" TP is better than "bad" mills.

Bad TP is better than bad Mills is my point. His ball handling, ability to get LMA great shots and defense all make him still better than bad Mills.

Sure, if Mills/Manu aren't going 4/21 (a trend now vs MEM all year with how they have struggled) then sure.

[Seventyniner]

Not gonna hate when he's hitting those corner 3s, but he looked a bit gassed in the 2nd half.... hopefully these 2-3 days of rest help...

I was just about to write a response about how I agree with you and that Tony needs to be fresh. But then I looked at this:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/...01/splits/2017

The numbers show that Tony has actually played really well on no rest, decent on 1 day of rest, and badly on 2+ days of rest. Pretty much the opposite of what I expected.

[DPG21920]

Party is playing great defense. Dpg acting like including defense OT somehow makes Parker better.

Wow.

[DMC]

my

[DPG21920]

I was just about to write a response about how I agree with you and that Tony needs to be fresh. But then I looked at this:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/...01/splits/2017

The numbers show that Tony has actually played really well on no rest, decent on 1 day of rest, and badly on 2+ days of rest. Pretty much the opposite of what I expected.

Nice find. I think Nono is right, but in different context. I think the rest isn't about playing frequency like you have shown, but more about longer-term fatigue in stretches and his inability to stay healthy enough for long periods.

[spurraider21]

Bad TP is better than bad Mills is my point. His ball handling, ability to get LMA great shots and defense all make him still better than bad Mills.

Sure, if Mills/Manu aren't going 4/21 (a trend now vs MEM all year with how they have struggled) then sure.

I disagree that bad TP has an ability to get anybody great shots. Bad TP tries to get penetration several times, fails, and then has to back the ball out with 7 seconds on the shot clock. He's a total possession killer. And then when he defers, teams don't respect his outside shot as much and the spacing gets difficult (unless he's able to make them pay with the 3-ball like he has thus far against Memphis).

[DMC]

Party is playing great defense. Dpg acting like including defense OT somehow makes Parker better.

Patty is playing defense? Dude looks like someone's kid ran out of the stands and is just lost as running around trying to get autographs.

[DMC]

I disagree that bad TP has an ability to get anybody great shots. Bad TP tries to get penetration several times, fails, and then has to back the ball out with 7 seconds on the shot clock. He's a total possession killer. And then when he defers, teams don't respect his outside shot as much and the spacing gets difficult (unless he's able to make them pay with the 3-ball like he has thus far against Memphis).

Bad TP gets snuffed in the paint several times and ends up on his back while a 5 on 4 is headed the other way. That and cornholing Erin.

[DPG21920]

I disagree that bad TP has an ability to get anybody great shots. Bad TP tries to get penetration several times, fails, and then has to back the ball out with 7 seconds on the shot clock. He's a total possession killer. And then when he defers, teams don't respect his outside shot as much and the spacing gets difficult (unless he's able to make them pay with the 3-ball like he has thus far against Memphis).

It has been proven unequivocally over a large sample size, that even "bad TP" gets LMA quality looks on a very consistent basis.

He might stifle the 3PT shooters some, but not the post up plays which SA runs more than any team (for a reason). Like that offense or not, that is SA offense and even "bad" TP does that better than Mills.

On top of that, Mills not playing well, while he provides the "threat" of spacing doesn't appear to have the gravity as much as you would think and you get the same issues so far of TP not being able to penetrate because Mills doesn't even bother trying because he can't.

[spurraider21]

It has been proven unequivocally over a large sample size, that even "bad TP" gets LMA quality looks on a very consistent basis.

He might stifle the 3PT shooters some, but not the post up plays which SA runs more than any team (for a reason). Like that offense or not, that is SA offense and even "bad" TP does that better than Mills.

On top of that, Mills not playing well, while he provides the "threat" of spacing doesn't appear to have the gravity as much as you would think and you get the same issues so far of TP not being able to penetrate because Mills doesn't even bother trying because he can't.

but that's a benefit to patty... instead of wasting possessions trying to get penetration and killing the shot clock, he lets the offense go to work. whereas parker has no problem trying to penetrate when he can't, thus killing possessions instead of swinging the ball around much earlier.

its the same concept of praising somebody for good shot selection

[140]

Official update...Phoenix Rising stage 10.

[dabom]

Patty is playing defense? Dude looks like someone's kid ran out of the stands and is just lost as running around trying to get autographs.

We must be getting blown out with patty then.

[DPG21920]

but that's a benefit to patty... instead of wasting possessions trying to get penetration and killing the shot clock, he lets the offense go to work. whereas parker has no problem trying to penetrate when he can't, thus killing possessions instead of swinging the ball around much earlier.

its the same concept of praising somebody for good shot selection

TP takes mostly good shots. Whether he makes them or not does not dictate whether they are good shots. Again, for the offense SA runs, TP gets more consistent quality looks for others than Mills.

I guess the best way to illustrate this point is for the first half of the season TP with the starters vs Mills with the same starters you had TP a + and Mills more of a -.

Over the 2nd half, it was great to see Mills be a + with that unit, even more than TP was, but TP was still a +.

Mills playing great can definitely be a plus, but Mills playing poorly is not. TP playing great has SA being the best version of themselves when TP not playing great can still be a + (to a much lesser degree) because of the "other" things he does when not shooting well.

Boiled down, Mills not shooting well only provides spacing and that has not proven to be enough to be a positive alone. TP not shooting well still gets the PnR sets going, gets guys like LMA higher quailty looks and plays better defense.

[dabom]

Bad TP gets snuffed in the paint several times and ends up on his back while a 5 on 4 is headed the other way. That and cornholing Erin.

[Brazil]

Party is playing great defense. Dpg acting like including defense OT somehow makes Parker better.

I'm pretty sure DPG is speaking about those 2 games

I for one don't think Patty is much better than Parker overall but that's another topic.

Point is that one cannot complain with Parker effort and result on defense so far.

[140]

TP takes mostly good shots.

[DPG21920]

I'm pretty sure DPG is speaking about those 2 games

I for one don't think Patty is much better than Parker overall but that's another topic.

Point is that one cannot complain with Parker effort and result on defense so far.

I'm speaking overall TP has always been levels better than Mills on defense. Even this year, while the gap may have closed some, TP is better. Vs MEM specifically? TP has been a great Conley defender while Mills has been atrocious and nothing in these first two games has changed that narrative at all.

[spurraider21]

TP takes mostly good shots. Whether he makes them or not does not dictate whether they are good shots. Again, for the offense SA runs, TP gets more consistent quality looks for others than Mills.

I guess the best way to illustrate this point is for the first half of the season TP with the starters vs Mills with the same starters you had TP a + and Mills more of a -.

Over the 2nd half, it was great to see Mills be a + with that unit, even more than TP was, but TP was still a +.

Mills playing great can definitely be a plus, but Mills playing poorly is not. TP playing great has SA being the best version of themselves when TP not playing great can still be a + (to a much lesser degree) because of the "other" things he does when not shooting well.

Boiled down, Mills not shooting well only provides spacing and that has not proven to be enough to be a positive alone. TP not shooting well still gets the PnR sets going, gets guys like LMA higher quailty looks and plays better defense.

my point in all this is that when TP is "bad parker" i worry his leash is too long. i dont think that's been a problem with mills/manu

[dabom]

I'm pretty sure DPG is speaking about those 2 games

I for one don't think Patty is much better than Parker overall but that's another topic.

Point is that one cannot complain with Parker effort and result on defense so far.

Patty closes out games. This is "your best 5 vs my best 5" time. Clearly he is better even if he shoots 0-8.

[DPG21920]

my point in all this is that when TP is "bad parker" i worry his leash is too long

I am fine with that. Just pointing out that like people that scream "start Murray" just because TP is playing bad does not automatically mean there are better options.

Especially when viewed under the lense of: 1) Is Manu/Mills playing well at that time & 2) Even if Manu/Mills are playing well, does that ceiling make it enough for SA to win or do you just need to hope TP does his thing so that ceiling can be achieved?

[DAF86]

If neither TP nor Mills are playing well on a particular game I hope Pop plays another option (Murray, Manu at PG, even Kyle or Simmons), but if I really have to choose between bad Mills and bad TP, Patty should get the nod, if only because of spacing. That's one thing Mills will always provide over Tony. And no, in the real current World that we are living right now, a bad TP doesn't provide any of the things dpg is saying.

[spurraider21]

start murray never made sense... and patty has been so great in the second unit, it's not worth tinkering with (same with Pau even when dedmon is struggling)

[gambit1990]

I disagree that bad TP has an ability to get anybody great shots. Bad TP tries to get penetration several times, fails, and then has to back the ball out with 7 seconds on the shot clock. He's a total possession killer. And then when he defers, teams don't respect his outside shot as much and the spacing gets difficult (unless he's able to make them pay with the 3-ball like he has thus far against Memphis).

[DPG21920]

If neither TP nor Mills are playing well on a particular game I hope Pop plays another option (Murray, Manu at PG, even Kyle or Simmons), but if I really have to choose between bad Mills and bad TP, Patty should get the nod, if only because of spacing. That's one thing Mills will always provide over Tony. And no, in the real current World that we are living right now, a bad TP doesn't provide any of the things dpg is saying.

That is simply not true. Look at the Conley vs TP and Conley vs Mills numbers I posted. TP's defense of Conley is better than non-shooting Mills. It just is.

I agree with you though. I would like to see Pop get creative in the event TP stops being so good. Mills and Manu are not the answer at their current levels of play so he will have to try new things and hopefully get contributions from many people.