[PIE CHARTS] We literally can't sign a max player next off-season while keeping Lonnie Walker...

[talkspurs]

S bag wasn't a star, let alone superstar, in '14.

All max contracts are not created equal . . .

Players with 0-6 years of experience can earn up to 25% of the cap.
Players with 7-9 years of experience can earn up to 30% of the cap.
Players with 10+ years of experience can earn up to 35% of the cap.

Collins would obviously fit into column A. Whether he's worth it or not is irrelevant in this case because either way it's close enough and if they want him, it'll have to be that, probably along with a certain structure (frontloaded, trade kicker) to dissuade them from matching.

Sure, barring Johnson becoming at least a borderline superstar, the core would have a sub championship ceiling, but most do and it's clear the front office isn't interested in tanking to increase the odds of drafting such a player, so adding another significant young piece for essentially free could take precedence. Ac ulate enough of those and they'd be simultaneously building a package for a possible star trade.

You cant front load a max contract as it is so much the first year with so much in raises. It also is relevant if he is worth it as that helps determine what we shouldtn pay for him and when we should walk away.

[Dejounte]

If the Spurs believe John can eventually get to the level of the following players: Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokic, Karl Anthony Towns, Bam Adebayo... then yeah, they should go for it. These are players who earn the same amount John would get if/when he gets the max in 2021, and are absolutely worth it.

The ideal power forward for me would be someone we draft and could groom to become a more defensive-minded Brandon Ingram or Pascal Siakam type PF. If there's a prospect like that in next year's draft, why go for someone like Collins? Are we in that much of in a hurry?

The Hawks recently put Collins as their full-time C and DeAndre Hunter as their PF. Hawks fans have concerns about Collins being unplayable in the playoffs. The risk here is that he underperforms with that contract because of these concerns and will be untradeable.

Being unable to play because of defense is a serious concern for me. It's what I think happened with DeMarre Carroll.

Also, in order to sign Collins to the max, we would have to renounce all of our free agents. If I'm not wrong, that means after we sign Collins, we would have to dig through the scraps to fill our depth. That sounds like something I'm more open to do if we were signing a superstar, not John freaking Collins.

It just sounds more unrealistic by the day. The negatives outweigh the positives.

[TD 21]

You cant front load a max contract as it is so much the first year with so much in raises. It also is relevant if he is worth it as that helps determine what we shouldtn pay for him and when we should walk away.

Fair enough. I'm just saying, let's say he's guaranteed something like minimum 90% of the max and they're interested, I don't think the extra 10% should be what dissuades them.

[Dejounte]

$20.75 million per year. That's high end Key Starter money and low end Borderline All Star money. About 20% of the team cap. If Schroder continues his good play, that's worth it I believe. Lakers front office is underrated, they use their money well. Of course they got lucky with the hard part (LeBron and Davis) so who knows what they could do if they were a small market team.

[Fusternino]

The Spurs only have 5 FA's next offseason-the 4 vets and Lyles. Why does it matter if you have to renounce them? If anything because of Bird Rights now is the time to get a high-end FA because we can just go over the cap to keep anyone from Summer 2022 onwards, just like how GS got Durant.

[talkspurs]

This will also have tax implications for them if they go with that amount and would have lots of small deals on their list. So even with 2 max they have 3-4 well paid players and then it goes to small contracts.

[Dejounte]

The Spurs only have 5 FA's next offseason-the 4 vets and Lyles. Why does it matter if you have to renounce them? If anything because of Bird Rights now is the time to get a high-end FA because we can just go over the cap to keep anyone from Summer 2022 onwards, just like how GS got Durant.

Five FA's seems a lot to lose for a marginal upgrade in Collins... How many wins would Collins really add?

As far as going over the cap, the highest we've gone over it is 9M per timvp. That doesn't seem like a lot.

Just playing devil's advocate...

[mo7888]

Five FA's seems a lot to lose for a marginal upgrade in Collins... How many wins would Collins really add?

As far as going over the cap, the highest we've gone over it is 9M per timvp. That doesn't seem like a lot.

Just playing devil's advocate...

I agree with this. There's no way I renounce everyone for the privilege of paying Collins the max. Collins or Lauri I see at the 18-20M/yr range and I'm not even really excited at that #. I'd much rather draft a PF, trying and pickup a young guy like Precious in a trade (if for instance Miami decides they want LMA), or try and rehab a young PF who hasn't done well with his initial team.

[talkspurs]

Five FA's seems a lot to lose for a marginal upgrade in Collins... How many wins would Collins really add?

As far as going over the cap, the highest we've gone over it is 9M per timvp. That doesn't seem like a lot.

Just playing devil's advocate...

I think that was the furthest we have gone into the tax is 9mil. There is a little more then 20 mil between the cap and the tax. I also see us looking at getting rid of some of the older players as a good thing. Mostly DDR and LMA. We would have to fill them in with some people and I am fine if they are vets. I just want our two high usage players gone.

[JeffDuncan]

Yeah, I know. I was providing an example of how "last big contracts" can be secured in different ways, depending on the team.

No, you responded on the subject of short term contracts. You were trying to talk yourself into the idea that DDR would accept a 1yr or 2yr deal, because Rudy Gay - coming off a full rupture of an achilles tendon - accepted a short term deal with the Spurs. But, really now. It is not the same thing.

DDR just began this season with a statline of 28, 9, 9. The early indication is, he'll equal his career numbers, perhaps exceed them this season. He will have no interest in a short term deal at less than his current contract. Nor should he.

Is that a problem? Nah. Let him go. Let some other team pay him. With the Spurs' current group of youngsters, augmented by whoever the Spurs can pick up, should we fear playing against DDR, if he goes to another team?

With Keldon, and Derrick, and the guys, would you be worried about playing against DDR? I would not. Maybe I should, but I don't see it as a big concern. I'd worry much more about Morant, Trae Young, Doncic, Giannis, than about DDR on another team.

I'll root for DDR as best I can this season, but then, I hope the team looks elsewhere.

[R. DeMurre]

I see the Spurs sitting back this year and seeing who emerges from the crowd as productive players, and then throwing a little bit of money at one or more of them.

Think about someone like Domantas Sabonis-- he started last season with a previous best of 14.1/9.3/2.9, finished the year @ 18.5/12.4/5.0, and then signed a 4 year/$77mil contract. Someone's bound to have that Sabonis/Christian Wood kind of breakout year.

[Dejounte]

No, you responded on the subject of short term contracts. You were trying to talk yourself into the idea that DDR would accept a 1yr or 2yr deal, because Rudy Gay - coming off a full rupture of an achilles tendon - accepted a short term deal with the Spurs. But, really now. It is not the same thing.

DDR just began this season with a statline of 28, 9, 9. The early indication is, he'll equal his career numbers, perhaps exceed them this season. He will have no interest in a short term deal at less than his current contract. Nor should he.

Is that a problem? Nah. Let him go. Let some other team pay him. With the Spurs' current group of youngsters, augmented by whoever the Spurs can pick up, should we fear playing against DDR, if he goes to another team?

With Keldon, and Derrick, and the guys, would you be worried about playing against DDR? I would not. Maybe I should, but I don't see it as a big concern. I'd worry much more about Morant, Trae Young, Doncic, Giannis, than about DDR on another team.

I'll root for DDR as best I can this season, but then, I hope the team looks elsewhere.

Listen, I'm aware of Rudy Gay's situation prior to joining the Spurs and how DeMar is in a different league than Rudy.

I just don't think DeMar has better opportunities for himself than he does with the Spurs, regardless of multi-year offers.

And on that topic, I don't even think there will be a big market for him. See below:

1. Charlotte won't have enough money for DeMar, not over the Spurs.
2. The Bulls have to renounce eight players to sign DeMar. Not happening.
3. Cavaliers aren't letting go of Drummond.
4. Dallas aren't renouncing their players for DeMar
5. Memphis aren't renouncing their players for DeMar
6. Miami isn't declining their team options on players
7. Will the Pelicans get renounce Ball and Hart to sign DeMar? DeMar seems like an awful fit with the Pelicans.
8. I could MAYBE see it happening with the Knicks, but given DeMar's roots does he want to play there? Does he want to start anew with young players to mentor all over again? Will money speak for DeMar?
9. The Thunder could go Chris Paul again with DeMar at the helm, so here's another challenger.
10. The Raptors aren't renouncing all their players for DeMar

I see the Thunder and the Knicks as the true challengers to taking DeMar, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you think it is.

[Prime BEEF]

In terms of advanced stats & effectiveness, I agree Kawhi was already at star level, but I think going into those playoffs after a season where he averaged 13 & 6, few were saying he was in the same tier as any of the top ten finishers in the MVP voting. That season, Timmy & Parker finished tied for 12th in MVP voting, and Kawhi didn't get any votes at all.

The thing I'll always remember about 2004 is that Bill Russell predicted the Pistons would beat the Lakers because of their defense, and a whole bunch of people on a basketball website I was following way back then were clowning him & saying he was old and didn't understand the modern game. That was pretty great.

Yup was fun watching the talking heads meltdown after the Pistons won with defense and teamwork

[Fusternino]

You can sign a max player, and bring back Gay + Mills + Lyles on the cheap to still be under the cap. Draft pick + min gets you to 15. How ready are we to talk away from LMA and DDR?

[Prime BEEF]

Is Jaylon Brown a Star?

He’s not an mvp candidate but yes he is a star

[JeffDuncan]

Listen, I'm aware of Rudy Gay's situation prior to joining the Spurs and how DeMar is in a different league than Rudy.

Then why did you mention Gay? But never mind, it doesn't matter. Forum discussions wander all over the place.

I just don't think DeMar has better opportunities for himself than he does with the Spurs, regardless of multi-year offers.

Last time I looked, this was December, 2020. What month and year does your calendar show? It's a little early to speculate, especially since injuries occur every season, all around the league.

Why keep DDR? With the imminent loss of LMA, who could retire, the team is in need of a real power forward.

...
I don't think it's as cut and dry as you think it is.

What is it that I think is cut and dry? Seriously. To what are you referring?

[JeffDuncan]

I see the Spurs sitting back this year and seeing who emerges from the crowd as productive players, and then throwing a little bit of money at one or more of them.

Think about someone like Domantas Sabonis-- he started last season with a previous best of 14.1/9.3/2.9, finished the year @ 18.5/12.4/5.0, and then signed a 4 year/$77mil contract. Someone's bound to have that Sabonis/Christian Wood kind of breakout year.

Well stated. It isn't about who looks good now, but instead, who will look good next summer.

[murpjf88]

People will be upset because they won't understand the implications of other moves towards the cap, but I think this is the most realistic thing that will happen.

After the Marcus Morris show and the DeMarre Carroll disappointment, it is way too risky to invest that much money into a free agent... unless they absolutely know their character OR it's a surefire superstar like LeBron James/ Giannis.

As if Morris or Carroll were anything more than bargain basement signings, not risky at all.

[Dejounte]

Then why did you mention Gay? But never mind, it doesn't matter. Forum discussions wander all over the place.



Last time I looked, this was December, 2020. What month and year does your calendar show? It's a little early to speculate, especially since injuries occur every season, all around the league.

Why keep DDR? With the imminent loss of LMA, who could retire, the team is in need of a real power forward.



What is it that I think is cut and dry? Seriously. To what are you referring?

You brought up that DeMar would be interested in a last big contract > I disputed that by saying the Spurs would be able to offer that, but in a different way because... > Spurs have reputation of taking care of vets > Gay is mentioned as someone who the Spurs have taken care of (1 year, 2 year deals), regardless of his injury status and talent level compared to DeMar > the Spurs can promise a second contract after a 2 year deal and continue that cycle to Demar, which would essentially be a multi year contract.

Regarding it's "too early" to speculate. You have tons of people here talking about who they want to draft with a top 10 pick next year.

You're being snappy for some reason. Not sure where that's coming from. We don't need to continue this if you're going to be like that.

[Dejounte]

As if Morris or Carroll were anything more than bargain basement signings, not risky at all.

On Morris: We lost Bertans as a result, an asset who probably could be flipped for a rotational piece
On Carroll: Paid $6,842,307 for him to do nothing. That's 5.53% of the team cap, he should have been used as a rotational piece.

To a big market team, these could be bargain basement signings. For a small market one? I don't think so.

Still, these failed signings demonstrate how much worse it could be if they made the wrong move to sign a player to the max if they weren't 100% sure about his abilities or his character.

[murpjf88]

On Morris: We lost Bertans as a result, an asset who probably could be flipped for a rotational piece
On Carroll: Paid $6,842,307 for him to do nothing. That's 5.53% of the team cap, he should have been used as a rotational piece.

To a big market team, these could be bargain basement signings. For a small market one? I don't think so.

Still, these failed signings demonstrate how much worse it could be if they made the wrong move to sign a player to the max if they weren't 100% sure about his abilities or his character.

Well, the Spurs lost one year of Bertans because they weren't going to sign him to any 5 year-80M contract anytime soon. And the Spurs value of Bertans was low to begin with and as with most trades the Spurs make, they probably would have got ripped off in any trade

[Dejounte]

Watching the Clippers vs Nuggets game right now...

The Clippers are trotting out two point guards (Bev and Jackson), two wings (Batum and Leonard) and a center (Zubac)

Who the would Collins guard? Zubac is too strong for him and he's not quick enough against Batum and Leonard.

[R. DeMurre]

Batum looks totally revitalized in these first two games. I dunno, I guess there's something about playing in Charlotte that kills the passion of French basketball players...

[Dejounte]

Batum looks totally revitalized in these first two games. I dunno, I guess there's something about playing in Charlotte that kills the passion of French basketball players...

He does look good. I posted before we should've picked him up. He would have been a good mentor for Vassell.

Leonard looks like he hasn't slowed down.

A young version of Batum would look good today as a modern PF. He's holding his own out there. Not being a liability on either end.

[Atl Spur]

We’ll off load some assets in the near future; in Patfo we trust! The Wright fella doing well after all