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I see you haven't responded to my get some facts comment. Guess you didn't have any.
Get off the crack, dude.
I see you haven't responded to my get some facts comment. Guess you didn't have any.
Show me facts to back up YOUR opinions and you're on. Until then, not so much. Unlike some, I have never represented anything stated here as my opinion as fact.
And, besides, I was just quoting you on the crack thing. Most people don't like it when they get their own thrown back at them.
I (still) don't really have a position on this, but I would disagree with the assertion that less-than qualified players should have numbers retired as long as someone worse than him has his retired. If I felt that Moore was not a worthy retiree, I wouldn't want to further legitimize it by allowing it to influence many other jersey retirements.
IMO, it would be better to just leave it up there and set a new standard.
NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact.
Can you prove that statement wrong? The FACT is, without Avery, they would not have three championships. Whether they would have the other two is debatable, but highly unlikely.
Can you honestly and intelligently believe that all the people (players and coaches) with the Spurs today would be where they are if not for that first championship? If you do, you have some high-powered imagination.
The Spurs would not have 3 championships without Avery? Did I read this correctly??
No, you're right, without Avery, Duncan wouldn't have 3 rings, 2 MVPs, etc. etc..
Without Avery, Beno would be baggin groceries.
Without Avery, Rasho would be homeless.
Without Avery, Bowen would be selling cars.
Blah. Blah. Blah....
Dude, that is the worst statement that I have ever read in a Spurs forum, in fact, it tops anything that I could've ever come up with.
Exaggeration.
Well, the same could be said about Stephen Jackson and Robert Horry... Maybe even Speedy Claxton and Steve Kerr. Obviously Avery's contributions to the team were greater, though.The FACT is, without Avery, they would not have three championships.
I think jersey retirements should be about all-time fan favorites. In 25 years, will we look back on Avery Johnson as one of the most beloved and important Spurs players in franchise history? If most people believe the answer will be Yes, then his jersey should be retired. I think individual/team success should be part of the equation, but not the most important part.
Last edited by Spurminator; 11-28-2005 at 04:32 PM.
No exaggeration.
Not arguing that point. The only difference I see is that Avery's contributions were over a longer period of time.
What should jersey retirement be about? If not fan support plus individual/team success while that person was an active member of the team roster?
Well, once again, opinion becomes fact because someone agrees.
Bill Russell
Isiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
Magic Johnson
David Robinson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
^ Heck yes.
...Avery Johnson???
Did we say it was fact? We share the same opinion. It's still an opinion.
I would agree if we were talking about election to the Hall of Fame.
For jersey retirements, I tend to be less rigid, and agree that "belovedness" also should be taken into account (although AJ clearly also splits Spurs fans in that regard, too).
The reason Tim came back was mostly because david robinson agreed to return for another year, not because of Avery. If I recall Avery and Tim really were not that great of friends, they did not like each other much.
but seriously Avery is responsible for the spurs winning three???? If that is really your opionion then more power to you, that is your opionion. I feel that statement is an exageration of Averys accomplishments.
Also Mario was the balls on the team not avery.
And I know that parker has not done for the spurs(roll my eyes) execept that defense on Hamilton in game 5 on the last shot, I guess that was ok.
Also Pache--- Tex did list some facts, the spurs did not win a championship in all of the other years avery was there. and he did get STATISTICALLY owned by other point guards in the playoffs.
I personally feel he was the most expendable player out of the starting 5 and out of some of the reserves on that team.
good point. I would bet it is the same among a lot of the people he played with as well.(let me be clearI am stating this as my opinion, not a fact, i have no surveys from former players to back up that statement.)
I know why Tim Duncan re-signed with the Spurs, and I never said Avery was directly responsible for that. That's taking my statement out of context. What I said was, I'm not sure he'd have re-signed if they had not won the Championship in 1999; and in a separate statement, I said I felt that Avery was key to them winning that. As for David and Avery not liking each other very much...that may or may not be true. But they ALWAYS respected each other and their respective contributions to the team and the game. I have never heard either of them say anything to the contrary.
I NEVER said that Avery is responsible for the Spurs winning all three championships. I said they would not have won the first one without him. And it is doubtful they would have won two more if they had not won the first one. And that IS my opinion.
I never said Avery was "the balls on the team". Although I like Mario Elle, I don't really have an opinion about whether or not he was "the balls on the team", never thought about it.
Ok. But, since I never said they would have won championships in all the other years Avery was here, I don't see how that is relevant to my statements. And I have never debated statistics. But, key shots and leadership do not always show up in statistics.
A lot of my post was not directed at you directly it was stuff that I had read throughout, just mentioning that so you knew that I did not think you said the balls thingas well as some other things.
anyway I agree with the key shot, However I feel that really opens up the door to a lot of people, kerr had a series changing performance,horry had a series changing performance. S Jax had a ton of key shots.Sean Elliot...had a series changing performance.
My point: I bet the spurs would have still won that series if Avery had not hit that shot. I know he hit the shot but it was not a series changing shot, the spurs were still up 3-2 if he missed.
who is the one with the high powered imagination?? hahaha
I thought you weren't stating FACTS just your opinionhypocrite
just for the record I said Tim and Avery in the original Post. David and Avery were great friends.
One thing at a time....Who agrees that Avery was just as important as Tim and David during the 99 Championship run? not based solely on stats.
I have it
1. Tim
2. David
3. Avery
4. Sean
Avery was a ty point guard and it was clearly proved when he left here and had to fend for himself on ty teams. No Duncan, no Robinson = true colors = ty point guard.
If Duncan wanted his ass here, he woulda been here. EVERYONE in the organization wanted his ass out of here.
Then it was clearly made public that Ginobili was to get #6 and then Don Harris and others raised a big ass fuss.
I as well as many others that I know, think that Avery was a ty point guard and if the Spurs coulda found someone else to run this team, they might have been more successful than just a 99 championship, which oh by the way, Avery's shot came on a 4-1 asskicking.
Sean Elliott shouldn't even be up in the rafters, much less Avery. Yeah, he was a fan favorite, but cmon, to be up there with Iceman and Admiral, it just takes away from their glory. I'm surprised that we didn't have a picket line when Van Exel chose his jersey number.
you see...THIS is the PROBLEM.
some of you seem to think raising players of admittedly less importance than Ice, DRob, or TD would diminish their legacy.
WRONG.
Ice, DRob and TD's legacies As Spurs are Untouchable.
If i may borrow from a fellow posters screen name.
Ice, Drob and TD's contibutions to the Spurs and quite frankly, to the NBA...
CAN"T BE FADED.
when you realize that? you'll be more at ease with having others up their in the rafters with them....
They'll only BRING UP the legacies of the others...i.e. Sean and soon AJ, and one day Manu, and yeah, i'm hoping Bruce too...but we'll save that for after their retirements...kay....cuz i don't want the haters heads to explode...
Sean Elliott's retirement is border line as well.
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