The Search for a Second Star

[Mr. Body]

the thing about Sochan is we have seen him shoot fadeaway jumpers out of a spin move and hit them consistently. That's not some role player move. If he can hit the 3 consistently he can become a problem on offense. He's already to quick for bigs and can post up smaller players. If he has a jump shot, there's no telling how far his offense can develop

Yeah, he has a really nice turnaround on the post. His three is completely ed up but it's not like he doesn't have touch. His ft % shot up once he got his guiding hand off it. Just needs to tinker and improve.

Remember he barely got any instruction in England. It was basically him and his mom trying to figure basketball out together. If you watched any tape of him playing for Poland, you'd be, like, what is this guy? He was doing everything.

I'm not saying Sochan is a sure fire star but I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if he becomes one very soon. Not just a face of the team sort of way, which he already is one of them, but in producing on the court.

[SpursFan86]

again 3 hall of famers. Old, coming off injuries or not, hall of famers are a different breed

That’s a somewhat fair point and I already conceded that the 2014 team had other cir stances that would make that team hard/impossible to recreate. But I still disagree with the notion you can’t win a le by surrounding an elite talent with several “borderline stars” (for lack of a better term). Again this is ESPECIALLY true if we’re operating with the belief that Victor will turn into not just an elite player, but an all-time great.

Look at how easily Denver just won a le. Do we really think they couldn’t have potentially won it all this year if you replace Jamal Murray with someone a bit worse who is less of a “star”? They only lost 2 games the entire playoffs. And it’s not like the cast outside of their top 2 was THAT amazing…if you replace Murray with a lesser PG but give them a few additional strong bench pieces then they almost certainly would still win it all.

What about the 2019 Raptors? Are we going to argue that Lowry or Siakam were bonafide stars?

[Ditty]

Well we have possibly six first round picks in the next two drafts to find Wemby's Robin.

[mo7888]

I think he can be an outstanding pro for a number of years even if his three doesn't ever develop, but watching him working on his form during the season, I simply don't believe that he is the type of guy who won't find a way to become a good shooter.

So where do we disagree here?

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Reading a lot of the comments on here, any Spurs related board, and talking to residents in the city has me worried for all the pressure Victor has coming into the season.

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

we need more talent and I fear a lot of fans don’t realize this and will not understand it until we actually start playing regular games. Then fans will turn on Pop, Victor, and the team. Folks need to look at this realistically and expect us to of course be better, but still be drafting in the lotto next season.

[SpursFan86]

Kawhi wasn't a star yet in the traditional sense, but his impact stats were already the best on the team. He had the same Drtg as Duncan, which was tied for first as the best on that team, and the highest ORtg on the team. He also led the team in BPM, VORP, and WS. His impact stats for the season were better than everybody's on the Heat that year except for LeBron.

A lot of those advanced metrics get skewed by playing on the best team in the league. Let me ask you this: if you drop Kawhi on a league-average team in 2014, do you think he has those same impact metrics?

Look I’m not saying the 2014 Spurs were just filled with role players and that’s the blueprint to win a le I’m really just trying to shoot down the notion that Victor needs a clear-cut “2nd banana” or “Robin” for us to win a le. I fully believe you can surround your #1 guy with multiple high level players without needing there to be an explicit “2nd option” who is a true star.

IMO it’s either one or the other: either you widen your definition of a star, in which case Sochan and Vassell absolutely have “star” potential…or you concede that you don’t need a true second star to win a le. If guys like Siakam/Lowry in 2019 or Middleton/Holiday in 2021 or Klay/Draymond in 2022 can be enough, then I see no reason why you’d think there’s no way Sochan or Vassell can’t potentially be the answer.

In the end this year will tell us a lot, and that’s why I don’t entirely fault the FO for wanting to see what they have. Not saying we shouldn’t look to bring in a few quality vets, but ultimately what needs to happen is we need to assess our existing core’s potential and see how they look in a better environment more conducive to winning (AKA playing with a healthy squad and not tanking). If we’re healthy this year and still look like then sure, we’ll know that we need much more firepower whether it be through the draft or FA.

Maybe I’ve been drinking too much of the Kool-Aid and am dramatically overestimating Sochan and Vassell’s potential These guys are just so young and people here are acting like we already know what they’ll be. Look at a lot of those names I mentioned above from recent le teams and go back and see what they were doing at 20-22 years old.

[R. DeMurre]

A lot of those advanced metrics get skewed by playing on the best team in the league. Let me ask you this: if you drop Kawhi on a league-average team in 2014, do you think he has those same impact metrics?

Look I’m not saying the 2014 Spurs were just filled with role players and that’s the blueprint to win a le I’m really just trying to shoot down the notion that Victor needs a clear-cut “2nd banana” or “Robin” for us to win a le. I fully believe you can surround your #1 guy with multiple high level players without needing there to be an explicit “2nd option” who is a true star.

IMO it’s either one or the other: either you widen your definition of a star, in which case Sochan and Vassell absolutely have “star” potential…or you concede that you don’t need a true second star to win a le. If guys like Siakam/Lowry in 2019 or Middleton/Holiday in 2021 or Klay/Draymond in 2022 can be enough, then I see no reason why you’d think there’s no way Sochan or Vassell can’t potentially be the answer.

In the end this year will tell us a lot, and that’s why I don’t entirely fault the FO for wanting to see what they have. Not saying we shouldn’t look to bring in a few quality vets, but ultimately what needs to happen is we need to assess our existing core’s potential and see how they look in a better environment more conducive to winning (AKA playing with a healthy squad and not tanking). If we’re healthy this year and still look like then sure, we’ll know that we need much more firepower whether it be through the draft or FA.

Maybe I’ve been drinking too much of the Kool-Aid and am dramatically overestimating Sochan and Vassell’s potential These guys are just so young and people here are acting like we already know what they’ll be. Look at a lot of those names I mentioned above from recent le teams and go back and see what they were doing at 20-22 years old.

I actually agree with you-- adding high impact/not quite all stars can absolutely work. I'd much rather have Kirilenko, Manu, or Jrue Holiday over Iverson or DeMarcus Cousins.

But I don't think Kawhi's impact stats that year were an outlier or based on being surrounded by Duncan, Ginobili, etc-- he replicated the same type of numbers in Toronto and with the Clippers. He's always been a high impact guy.

[RC_Drunkford]

I think one thing that people don't realize is how much overlap the Spurs could create. Superteams are hard to build with the new CBA, but the Spurs actually have a chance to do that.

Not only do the Spurs have around 37 million in cap space right now. They also have another 44 million coming off the books next offseason. Although it will be somewhat offset by Tre Jones and Vassells extension, plus maybe Zollins. Sochan, Branham and Wesley are on rookie deals. Their extensions kick in in the 26/27 season. During that season Wemby will still be on his rookie contract.

That gives the Spurs the unique opportunity to bring in a max or near max contract. And I think they should do it. There's no reason to add any Van Vleet's or be conservative with the cap when you have a 2-3-year window where you can add an All-Star. Weather Sochan, Vassell or whoever become the 2nd star doesn't matter either, overload the roster with high level talent to maximize the championship window.

It's perfectly fine to see what you have for this season, but by next season they should absolutely try to add an All-Star caliber guy to the existing team. With that much parity in the league this can get you to contention ASAP while you pay 10 to 12 million for Sochan and Branham combined. The cap will only get tight once we have to max out Wemby in 27/28.

From 2025 to 2027 the ATL picks will hit. If you find another All-Star caliber guy there and a couple servicable role players you now can afford to let certain role players go and have the next guys up on rookie deals, who developed at the back end of the roster. If you have to move that All-Star guy that you signed in FA or got via trade, you should still be able to compensate that somewhat.

That's why I said the Spurs have the chance to build a dominant roster. If executed to perfection they can have another 15-year run of being a contender.

[Obstructed_View]

So where do we disagree here?

I'm not sure we do. I was building on your comment. I think I'm more certain that his three will come around then you are, but that's not a big disagreement.

[daslicer]

Reading a lot of the comments on here, any Spurs related board, and talking to residents in the city has me worried for all the pressure Victor has coming into the season.

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

we need more talent and I fear a lot of fans don’t realize this and will not understand it until we actually start playing regular games. Then fans will turn on Pop, Victor, and the team. Folks need to look at this realistically and expect us to of course be better, but still be drafting in the lotto next season.

Agreed I don't expect a rapid turnaround like the Spurs had when they drafted Duncan back in 97 and went from being a 20-win team to winning 56 wins. I think this current Spurs team can win somewhere between 30-42 games. High chance they won't make it to the playoffs next year.

[Obstructed_View]

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

Not having a true all star is a far ing cry from not having any talent. I swear a lot of you guys have declared the Spurs players bad because of the point differential and the win loss record.

With Wemby and solid players, the Spurs are automatically even with every team in the division, if not every team in the conference.

[pookenstein]

I think a few things are clear:

-The Spurs are not going to have a losing season with Wemby on board, so relying on future drafts with their own picks to find the second guy is unlikely
-They are hitching their wagon on the current group of young guys. The young core might be here for a long time. I think the Spurs will want to show Wemby how different they are from the rest of the NBA, and keeping continuity or big parts of their roster intact is the “Spurs way” vs other teams where they’re constantly shifting things around. Wemby loves the Spurs for a reason, and it isn’t only because they won championships. Anyone who is a fan of the Spurs know the Spurs are the Spurs because of the unique things they do.


Tbh, the bar isn’t high anymore for a second guy to rise up. Jamal Murray isn’t a spectacular player compared to big time second fiddles like Shaq, Pippen, Paul Pierce. Who was second fiddle to Butler? Jalen Brown is about to be an overpaid player because he’s overrated. Anthony Davis is probably the only “second” star that qualifies as one who is better than or equal to the primary star on the Lakers (LeBron).

and finding the second star doesn’t always have to be through a top 5 pick in the lottery. There are a lot more ways a second star can be found, and most oftentimes, they can be homegrown. It’s not out of the question yet for most guys on the current roster. Someone may rise up and surprise us. Or it could be a guy we draft with the 20th pick in coming years.

There’s always an option of signing or trading for an established player, similar to what they did to get Aldridge. I’m sort of not a fan of this route because of what we could potentially give up and the chance they might bring their own ego to the team that the team wouldn’t be able to control. I think this path is more suited to when we have our 1 and 2 already.

I get your point and I think this is a good thread, but wtf were you smoking when you made Shaq second fiddle to Kobe? Not in one post, but twice. Kobe also had the alpha mentality, but Shaq was clearly first fiddle during their time in LA.

[rascal]

Reading a lot of the comments on here, any Spurs related board, and talking to residents in the city has me worried for all the pressure Victor has coming into the season.

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

we need more talent and I fear a lot of fans don’t realize this and will not understand it until we actually start playing regular games. Then fans will turn on Pop, Victor, and the team. Folks need to look at this realistically and expect us to of course be better, but still be drafting in the lotto next season.

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

[Dejounte]

I get your point and I think this is a good thread, but wtf were you smoking when you made Shaq second fiddle to Kobe? Not in one post, but twice. Kobe also had the alpha mentality, but Shaq was clearly first fiddle during their time in LA.

Haha absolutely fair comment

[LeBowen]

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

How many Pistons and Rockets games did you actually watch last season?
How many Spurs games, even?

[MannyIsGod]

You need to see these players play around Wemby before writing them off. That's the bottom line. Lots of players on this team where being a 2nd star is within their ceiling

[JPB]

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

For what the spurs are trying to do, and to surround Wemby, also considering the time they spent on developing these players, no I wouldn't do those trades.

Amen has played zero NBA games and I don't like what I've seen from Ivey in his rookie year.

[tonight...you]

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

I'm sure you're going to get a groundswell of support.

[Mr. Body]

Rascal has moved on from hyping Shaeden Sharpe to hyping cellar-dwelling teams that will be just as bad this year as they were last year.

[rascal]

I'm sure you're going to get a groundswell of support.

Not with the homerism on a Spurs fan board.

[rascal]

Rascal has moved on from hyping Shaeden Sharpe to hyping cellar-dwelling teams that will be just as bad this year as they were last year.

I'm still high on Sharpe.

Portland is going to have an exciting future backcourt with Scoot and Sharpe

[tonight...you]

Not with the homerism on a Spurs fan board.

I know. You got your own thing going on.
It's fine.
Do what you do in worshiping athleticism and speed.
Good stuff.

[Mr. Body]

I'm still high on Sharpe.

Portland is going to have an exciting future backcourt with Scoot and Sharpe

They're going to give up sixty points a game just from backcourts alone.

[Mugen]

I just hope Victor stays healthy and is half as good as the hype tbh.

[Dejounte]

I'm still high on Sharpe.

Portland is going to have an exciting future backcourt with Scoot and Sharpe

Find a sports fan board without homerism in it. Go join the Blazers forum then, dumbass.