Detroit Pistons and Flip Saunders

[zeleni]

Flip has one horrible flaw: He likes to mess with chemistry.

I expect Pistons no to make to Finals. Why? East need only a gifted coach to analyze the games Pistons played. Flip has toyed withthe starting 5 more than LB ever would.
The chemistry around playoff needs to be stronger then ever. They will lose against LeBron or some other team that shake them up in 2 games.

Team was fed with "they do not respect us, and we respect only the Spurs" and after they get the best record and HCA, they would get sloppy. Flip cannot pull this team together, if they fell apart. Flip could not pull even a young team together when it counted, so players won't respect him. I'd say Pistons will not play in the NBA Finals.

[Kori Ellis]

I agree, but I wonder what's different...I mean, obviously the Pistons play better team basketball than the Wolves ever did, but he wasn't able to win a playoff series with one of the greatest players ever for 7 years. But this year, with a new team playing in a new system, he is favored to win the NBA le and break all kinds of records along the way. How could there be such a drastic change from one team to another? How much can we attribute to Flip? To the players? Did his system just fit better with those players? Or is this yet again another example of the old adage that teams, not individual superstars, win les? Inquiring minds want to know....

Yeah, it's incredibly difficult to figure out. Was it Garnett's fault that they couldn't get out of the first round for so long? Or was Flip a big part of that? People always argued that KG didn't have a good supporting cast, but several years he did. So who choked?

I think that the best thing that Flip has done in Detroit is not try to really overhaul the whole team concept. They are still built on D first and he's just added some variety and freedom (and thus production) to their O.

They are a very formidable opponent.

I still take Spurs in 7.

[FreshPrince22]

Flip has one horrible flaw: He likes to mess with chemistry.

I expect Pistons no to make to Finals. Why? East need only a gifted coach to analyze the games Pistons played. Flip has toyed withthe starting 5 more than LB ever would.
The chemistry around playoff needs to be stronger then ever. They will lose against LeBron or some other team that shake them up in 2 games.

Please explain.

[T Park]

Flip liked to screw with chemistry in Minny.


Joe Smith and KG was a good front line, then hed switch up and put Dean Garrett in to try and "muscle" teams around.


I also think in a playoff series, adjustments were Flip's problem.

We will see how he does this year.


I dont think Garnett flopped in 99, he was too young and his supporting cast outside of Brandon was Anthony Peeler, Joe Smith, Sam Mitc .

No big suprise there.


I think Pistons will go to the Finals, we will see how he does.

He might be pulling on the old collar and adjusting his head, how he likes to do in tough situations.

[5ToolMan]

Props on a detailed post with solid analysis.

As for Flip, he is probally a better coach than those who roast him for so many first round exits, and/or failure to even make the playoffs with some solid talent last year.

Simply put, the Wolves were never strong enough of a team, nor expected to make it out of the first round in any year but 2004. That year, the only year they ever played any round with home court advantage, they lost to a pretty solid Laker squad who had the core of their Three Peat Championship plus the addition of Malone and Payton.

Unless you want to blame Flip for not developing a stronger team during the regular season, you must give him a partial pass, as except for once, he only lost to teams proven to be stronger over an entire season.

As for the Pistons, I do see one potential problem come playoff time. Although I am not a big stat guy, they appear to be more "dependant" on jumpshooting and fast breaks than in years past. In the playoffs, after a long season and when defensive intensity hits another level, it is much harder to get easy looks from the perimeter, unless you can free shooters by applying pressure from the inside. And fast breaks are always great, but they become much more rare as playoff time rolls around.

Granted, Rasheed and McDyes are solid in the post, and Billips and Prince are very effective posting in some matchups. But as a team, it appears they have developed a greater desire to just launch bombs, rather than work in the blocks.

This habit, set free by Flips desire to have greater offensive flow, could back fire if not adjusted to once defensive pressure heats up, and jump shooters legs tire.

[FreshPrince22]

Flip liked to screw with chemistry in Minny.

OK, but still. The person wrote:

Flip has toyed withthe starting 5 more than LB ever would.

That's the comment I was most interested in.

[conqueso]

And you think that kind of idiotic post isn't going to start more bickering? You're just making up re ed that makes no sense.

You really need to lay off the personally debassing comments. I don't abide by them. I'm obviously not "making up re ed that makes no sense." If you look at any one of my posts, you will find it to be well researched and well written, and most of my posts are also well reasoned. I'll let this one go, but you should know that you don't want to with me by calling me names or being intentionally offensive when you feel threatened by strong argument. I will bring the heat. Just ask implacable_44:
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthre...1&page=1&pp=26

What is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say Sheed can't guard Duncan one-on-one? If so, you need a history lesson, and I need to stop reading your posts.

Yes, Sheed does have big problems with Duncan one-on-one. There have been times when he's performed well, but remember the third and fourth quarters of game 5 when Sheed played the majority of the defense on Duncan. History lesson? Who has 3 Finals MVPs? 2 Regular Season MVPs? An All-Star MVP? Sheed can do well against Duncan, but it's certainly not on defense.

All I can say about this "Flip is going to mess things up in the playoffs" crap is that Flip has made last [sic] coaching mistakes this entire season than Larry Brown made in game 7 of the finals last year alone. Larry gets all of this praise, yet he was constantly making assinine decisions with his rotation when it counted, and often times costing us the game (in some cases, the le). Flip has been as close to perfect as possible. I don't see how the playoffs are going to change anything. He is not going to become and idiot overnight. He will put the players in position to win, just like he has all year. The difference is that, this year, Flip has a le-tested team.

I hear your point, but "becoming an idiot overnight" happens ALL THE TIME in the playoffs. I mean, there are so many examples that it's almost hard to make a list, but the ones that come to mind immediately are Webber, Malone, George Karl, Dirk, Kenyon Martin, Kevin Garnett, Tracy McGrady, etc. etc. etc. Flip has to fall in that category just based on his track record. I guess the big x-factor for me is that this year you're combining an amazingly wonderful playoff team with a terribly awful playoff coach. The last two years was different, and I'm wondering if that makes this year's team a better playoff team or a worse playoff team.

[Tanya]

The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

So what's your point? My point was the way the pistons playing will have higher chance to beat the Spurs than they used to do under LB. I am not just talking about 3-pointers. I am talking about the more balanced offense and defense combination.

You know what, I didn't say anything like the pistons is better than the spurs. I said "This year's pistons are better than last year's pistons." Don't just quote one sentence from my post and think that I am saying pistons>spurs. I am tired of explaining myself.

[FreshPrince22]

As for the Pistons, I do see one potential problem come playoff time. Although I am not a big stat guy, they appear to be more "dependant" on jumpshooting and fast breaks than in years past. In the playoffs, after a long season and when defensive intensity hits another level, it is much harder to get easy looks from the perimeter, unless you can free shooters by applying pressure from the inside. And fast breaks are always great, but they become much more rare as playoff time rolls around.

Granted, Rasheed and McDyes are solid in the post, and Billips and Prince are very effective posting in some matchups. But as a team, it appears they have developed a greater desire to just launch bombs, rather than work in the blocks.

This habit, set free by Flips desire to have greater offensive flow, could back fire if not adjusted to once defensive pressure heats up, and jump shooters legs tire.

This Pistons have been a jumpshooting team for the last 4-5 years. They won a le as a jumpshooting team. You make it sound like Rasheed used to work in the post when LB was here. In reality, he did even less there when Larry was around. As has been proven in the Spurs/Pistons matchups this year, he is willing to post up frequently in certain situations (usually against elite PFs like Duncan, KG, JO).

Also, it is a little known fact the Pistons don't "fastbreak" all that much. They actually have the 2nd slowest tempo of any team in the league. The half-court offense is what has taken huge strides this year.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Yes, Sheed does have big problems with Duncan one-on-one. There have been times when he's performed well, but remember the third and fourth quarters of game 5 when Sheed played the majority of the defense on Duncan. History lesson? Who has 3 Finals MVPs? 2 Regular Season MVPs? An All-Star MVP? Sheed can do well against Duncan, but it's certainly not on defense.

Big problems? That's a bit of an exaggeration.

But in the 12 games (including last year's Finals) that he's played Detroit since the Pistons acquired Rasheed Wallace, Duncan is shooting 42 percent (82 of 194).

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/spo...lly_basketball

[FreshPrince22]

Yes, Sheed does have big problems with Duncan one-on-one. There have been times when he's performed well, but remember the third and fourth quarters of game 5 when Sheed played the majority of the defense on Duncan. History lesson? Who has 3 Finals MVPs? 2 Regular Season MVPs? An All-Star MVP? Sheed can do well against Duncan, but it's certainly not on defense.

You're just flat out wrong. Sheed gives Duncan fits on both ends. Tim has admitted this himself. And it is not some hidden secret around the league. Every time these two teams face-off it's a topic of discussion. Sheed is the one guy in the league that you can throw on Duncan one-on-one and not worry about him going off.

And I'm sorry, but what do Duncan's individual awards have to do with Sheed? Don't fool yourself into thinking that just because Duncan has individual accolades means he'll dominate Rasheed offensively. Even if you watch Spurs/Pistons games with your homer goggles on you should see that that isn't the case. Sheed gives Timmy defensively.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I think he threw in the All-Star MVP for emphasis...

[5ToolMan]

So what's your point? My point was the way the pistons playing will have higher chance to beat the Spurs than they used to do under LB. I am not just talking about 3-pointers. I am talking about the more balanced offense and defense combination.

You know what, I didn't say anything like the pistons is better than the spurs. I said "This year's pistons are better than last year's pistons." Don't just quote one sentence from my post and think that I am saying pistons>spurs. I am tired of explaining myself.

Both your points remain to be seen.

The Pistons new style and commitment to winning regular season games, certainly has translated into a better regular season record at this point, for this year. But nothing else has been proven.

The facts are, every team in the league had major adjustments from changes in personel and injury, compared to the Pistons. The Pistons only change was to Flip. Credit him for not screwing up a great team, at least not yet. Flip's opening up the offense AND the Pistons having few other adjustments to make, has helped in the regular season.

The playoffs will write their own story. It appears Pop and a few Spurs know a little something about develolping a team for that great time of year for NBA Fans.

[Tanya]

What I think about flip?

Overrated. Of course Piston fans jump his cause they're winning. What fan wouldn't? The bottom line is, he don't know how to beat us. And if by some longshot the Pistons do beat us if we're in the finals, it's cause of their players, and their ability. Flip is a flipping joke.

Flip doesn't know how to beat you. But I don't think Pop has much confidence to have a way to beat us too. Flip is not a great coach as LB. But he is an offense genius. And that's why Joe D hired him. That's what LB couldn't bring us.

The pistons lost to the spurs last year, so was the reason Pop is a better coach than LB?

[5ToolMan]

This Pistons have been a jumpshooting team for the last 4-5 years. They won a le as a jumpshooting team. You make it sound like Rasheed used to work in the post when LB was here. In reality, he did even less there when Larry was around. As has been proven in the Spurs/Pistons matchups this year, he is willing to post up frequently in certain situations (usually against elite PFs like Duncan, KG, JO).

Also, it is a little known fact the Pistons don't "fastbreak" all that much. They actually have the 2nd slowest tempo of any team in the league. The half-court offense is what has taken huge strides this year.

How many games did Rasheed go 1 for 9 from the arc under Brown? How many threes are the Pistons shooting Flip compared to under Brown? How many fast break points are the Pistons getting under Flip compared to under Brown? How many points are the Pistons getting from post up plays in the paint from all players combined under Flip compared to under Brown.

I believe statistics in each of these areas will support what I have said about the Pistons relying more on jump shooting, especially from beyond the arc.

While I agree, Rasheed and McDyes can have some impact in the paint, in some ways they appear to become a bit of a black hole down low, when posting. Both become so focused on their own game, that the flow of the offense suffers. If they are hitting, no problem. But against stronger interior defenders shooting percentages better passing will be necessary.

[Tanya]

Both your points remain to be seen.

The Pistons new style and commitment to winning regular season games, certainly has translated into a better regular season record at this point, for this year. But nothing else has been proven.

The facts are, every team in the league had major adjustments from changes in personel and injury, compared to the Pistons. The Pistons only change was to Flip. Credit him for not screwing up a great team, at least not yet. Flip's opening up the offense AND the Pistons having few other adjustments to make, has helped in the regular season.

The playoffs will write their own story. It appears Pop and a few Spurs know a little something about develolping a team for that great time of year for NBA Fans.

Right. Both my points remain to be seen. But any comment on this thread remain to be seen. The pistons new style brings them a better regular season record. So what makes people think Flip will screw things up in the playoffs? Because of his career record? Well it's just the same case that everyone at the beginning of the season predicted the pistons would be only the 4th seed in the EC because LB was gone. Now people start to predict the pistons won't be winning the playoffs no matter how good they do in the regular season, because they have a coach who has not won any playoffs.
So before you want me to prove why Flip won't make the pistons worse, can you prove me why he will screw them up?

One more thing, Flip has only coached two teams so far in his career, Timberwolves and the Pistons. Compare this two teams, I say the pistons > Flip's old timeberwolves team. Say it if you don't agree. That team had no chance to win the lakers back to then. If Shaq is 28 or younger now the pistons would have little chance to beat the miami too.

[FreshPrince22]

How many games did Rasheed go 1 for 9 from the arc under Brown?

I can't tell you exactly, but I can tell you that Rasheed is shooting a career high in three point percentage. Much higher than under Larry Brown. Shooters are going to have off nights. It's not productive to beat them down about it. Sheed is a smart guy. He can police himself. The next game he went 1 of 2. You can't say "only shoot ___ many threes". That is just going to make him hesitate when he's open, and that's not going to have positive results.

How many threes are the Pistons shooting Flip compared to under Brown?

About 4 more per game. Perfectly reasonable, IMO. They shoot them when they're open. I can't see how you can have a problem with that. Chauncey, Rip, Mo Evans, Delfino, and Sheed are all shooting career high percentages on threes. It's not a problem untill they start forcing contested threes. And that won't happen with this team.

How many fast break points are the Pistons getting under Flip compared to under Brown?

People don't realize that the Pistons got out on the break last year as well. That really hasn't changed. Really, the only added fast break is Rip's pull-up 10-footer on the break that he gets once or twice per game. That's his game though.

How many points are the Pistons getting from post up plays in the paint from all players combined under Flip compared to under Brown.

It depends. Most of the post ups under LB were due to broken plays, late in the shot clock. This year, Sheed and (occasionally) Rip post up more. Tayshaun is a bit less (though he's been posting up quite a bit lately). And Chauncey is about the same.

While I agree, Rasheed and McDyes can have some impact in the paint, in some ways they appear to become a bit of a black hole down low, when posting. Both become so focused on their own game, that the flow of the offense suffers. If they are hitting, no problem. But against stronger interior defenders shooting percentages better passing will be necessary.

This paragraph in particular makes me think you don't watch the Pistons very often. Rasheed's dishing out more assists than he has in 5 years. His 2nd highest amount ever. And he's averaging 1 assist more than he was under LB the last 2 years. The last thing Rasheed should be called is a "blackhole". The dude is way too unselfish at times. He is probably the best face-up post player in the league. I wish he was a black hole down there. He's pretty much impossible to stop when he's facing the basket from 15 feet.

As for Dice... Despite his minutes being down considerably, he's also averaging more assists than last season. And I wouldn't blame him if he was a black hole. He is tough to stop on that turnaround J, and he is supposed to be the focus of the offense when he's out there. If he takes a shot or 2, and he feels like he's off he doesn't force the issue at all. You don't have to worry about those 2 guys being "blackholes". There isn't a blackhole on this team.

[Darrin]

This was a tremendous and well-thought post.

I believe that previous experience is overrated in terms of coaches. For instance, Rick Carlisle had no previous coaching experience when he took the Pistons to the second round. Chuck Daly had a 30 games or so coaching a bad Cleveland Cavaliers team before he came to the Pistons. Coaching is evaluated in a very relative way: Did the team and the players perform at or exceeding their potential?

But if we are going to talk about his record, it's not that bad. The last time that Flip Saunders had a number one seed in his conference, with a team as deep as the Pistons on both ends of the court, he guided his team to game six of the Western Conference Finals. He won two games in that series despite the team's most experienced leader, Sam Cassell, hobbling around the court.

The one thing that Saunders has shown the ability to do, and it's critical in late-game situations in the playoffs, is make adjustments to what the defense is providing. This team has very few bad nights in terms of shooting because Saunders has learned to take the poor shooters out of games. Rip Hamilton has had a few bad nights this season - most notably in the loss to the Wizards and the win against the Bulls in Chicago - and Saunders has had no problem pulling those players in favor of the bench.

I'll point this out - with the Wolves down 1-0 to the Spurs in the first round of the 1999 playoffs, Minnesota rebounded to do what only 4 other teams (of 25) had done all year - win in the Alamodome against the eventual Champions (80-71, Game two WCQF).

The LA Lakers were down eight points with less than two minutes left in the third period of game five of their 2003 playoff series. The Wolves were four minutes and fourty seconds away from having the Defending Champions down 3-1 in the first round. They lost that game, 102-97, to which KG commented "Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn."

He's had two series - 2003 and 2004 - when his team has had home-court advantage. He's only had one division le, and a truly underrated issue with his coaching - Stephon Marbury, Terrell Brandon, Chauncey Billups, Tom Gugliotta, Joe Smith (CBA violations), Gary Trent, Felipe Lopez, Felton Spencer, JR Rider, Christian Laettner, Tom Hammonds, Cherokee Parks, Dean Garrett, Andrew Lang, Malik Sealy (death), Terry Porter, Rasho Nesterovic - all of these players had success under Flip Saunders, and the majority of them left the team. There hasn't been a consistent core of players in his locker room his entire coaching career. That makes it very hard to judge what he will do with a group of guys that have talent, experience together, and chemistry.

Only time will answer this question, however, I have no problems seeing him on the bench in a late-round, late-game situation. Much was made about the fact Rick Carlisle "out-coached" Larry Brown in the 2003 Eastern Conference Semifinals when Carlisle's Pistons beat Brown's Sixers. When the two coaches with new teams matched up in both the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals and the 2005 Eastern Conference Semis, Brown walked away victorious on both occasions.

Much was made about Brown, for as good a coach as he is, only getting to the NBA Finals once, and never winning a Championship. How was he going to teach the Pistons how to win that big game when he couldn't close out the Lakers in 2001; how could he do it in 2004? He couldn't win against New York or Orlando when he was with Indiana. The man brought a Championship to Detroit and took the other Pistons team he coached to game seven of the NBA Finals.

Does that guarantee success for Flip Saunders? Nothing does except results. But I don't worry about this problem. When evaluating coaching candidates during the Conference Finals last season (LB to Cleveland was the dominant headline after game 3), Flip Saunders was at the top of my list. Phil Jackson was still out there, so was Paul Silas, Maurice Cheeks - and my top coaching candidate was Flip Saunders.

When he got to Minnesota, they had never made the playoffs. He was winning with a bunch of nobodies and wash-ups. He successfully molded KG, the first high schooler in the NBA in 25 years, into an all-world talent. Listing that as an accomplishment, he's got a lot of room with Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant, Rashard Lewis and Nate McMillan, etc. But Saunders was the first, a local kid with nothing more than a CBA background. His schemes, although I didn't like the zone, were inventive and affective. And I hated to see my Pistons go against his team because he always, always out-coached the Pistons - it didn't matter who was coaching them.

I went from laughing at the mere mention of the Wolves to cheering for them over his tenure. He's a tremendous basketball mind and he's not a manic personality like Larry Brown or Doug Collins. One of his players says he gives those he's coaching enough rope to hang themselves. Those that don't - like Chauncey Billups when Terrell Brandon encouters knee ailments - become success stories. I've always felt that Brown had too much credit given to him for the development of Chauncey Billups. The truth is in the pudding:

Two years, 4.2 million from Minnesota in the summer of 2000.
Six years, 42 million from the Pistons in the summer of 2002.


Bottom line: Flip Saunders is an excellent coach and I have very little concern for how he will coach in the playoffs.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Interesting thread. Love the heated discussions. I'll see if I can add a little to it!

In regards to Flip and his history, I've always felt that he's kinda gotten a raw deal. People love to talk about Flip's playoff record, and how often he failed to get out of the first round. I think he unduly takes too much of the blame. The fact is, that his teams were supposed to lose those first round series. Every year (I'm going off of memory, and not stats, so someone may be able to correct me about possibly one or two years) his Twolves faced a superior opponent. The lone exception, was 2003-2004 in which he went to the WCF. Of course you'd like a team to occasionally beat the odds and win in an upset, but IMO the way NBA playoffs are setup, the better team almost always wins. That's why I love the 5 and 7 game series as opposed to a "one and done" as in the NFL. The better team is supposed to win. And quite frankly, the Twolves were not the better team.

I personally lay more of the blame on Garnett. I lay blame on the lower quality of supporting casts (not all years...but some years). I blame McHale for being a poor GM. The Joe Smith fiasco. The drafting and trading of Starbury. I blame the lack of chemistry. It always seemed that they had 2 new starters every year. Look at how many different players the T-Wolves had in the last 10 years. It's amazing how many players have come and gone. The team never seemed to have alot of consistency, due to injury or at ude, year in, year out. Perhaps some of that is excuse making, but IMO they are all factors that led to them not being great playoff teams.

I clearly remember everyone dogging Garnett for not putting the team on his shoulders. Not wanting the ball when it counted. I am a HUGE Garnett supporter. He is my second favorite player after Billups. But I have to say that as a super star player who had an obscene contract, he was supposed to get it done. I don't know how much of that you can really put on his coach. Much like we've seen from Lebron this year recently, he wimped out when the pressure was on.

People talk about Flip and his lack of defense. I may agree with some of those arguments. I am not a fan of the zone. Flip obviously believes in it. I think there are times when it can be a benefit, if for nothing else than to offer a different look. I question though, based on the players he had, would a different scheme really have mattered much? I don't know. The origional poster made a statement that Flip didn't install the zone in Detroit, but in fact he has. You don't see it alot. The players are still learning it. The players are so confident in their man D skills. But each week, we see more and more of it being used..... at times. I think at the end of the day, incorporating it, will help us.

While I say Flip has taken too much blame through the years, I also think he is getting a little too much credit this year. (And I believe he'd be the first person to agree w/ me) The bottom line is that the Pistons are a Championship tested and proven team. The trust, chemistry and skills were already there. Sure, Flip has opened up the offense, but these guys already know how to play. They already know how to win. They are truly driven this year. The loss to the Spurs hurt. All of the credit/love that LB received hurt. They do want to prove that THEY are the reason for their success, and not their coach.

Before the season started, all I heard was how much the Pistons would struggle. Their defensive intensity would not be the same. Flip was going to screw up our chemistry.

People say that Flip adopted a great team, making him look good. The exact same can be said about LB. Our D didn't come from LB. If anything, Carlisle deserves soooo much more credit than he will ever receive. He brought the D to the "D". LB simply adopted a great team. IMO Carlisle would also have also won the Championship if he was still our boss man. LB had never won anyhting in the NBA till he came to Detroit. The players won the ring/belt!! not LB. Likewise, this year, the players are responsible for their success, not the coach.

I love how Flip has allowed the players to play this year. I think many Piston fans got frustrated w/ the LB era. We knew that the players had more offensive ability. We hated the scoring slumps. Flip has simply let them do their thing. Offensively, Rip and Chauncey are showing what they've always had the ability to do. It's definetly a much more fun team to watch.

The biggest thing that Flip has brought to the Pistons is the chance for the bench players to play through mistakes. Arroyo and Delfino now can play without looking over their shoulders if they make an error. I've found it interesting to watch the bench development this year. Delfino has SKILLS. Arroyo, at times, is one of the best passers in the game. Evans has been a pleasant suprise. The problem is, that they don't neccesarily play well together.

Early in the year, Flip would sit all the starters, and insert all the bench players late in games. Now, he tries to play the bench players in conjustion with the starters. Delfino has especially flourished due to this. Arroyo..........quite often, sucks. In a fast break, he can make an unbleievable no-look pass. In a half court, he dribbles out the clock. Flip recognized this, and has tended to play Evans and Delfino alongside Chauncey. He is better able to create for these guys allowing them to develop better tendencies and skills. Likewise, he has played Arroyo more often w/ Rip. With Rips' constant movement, it has allowed Arroyo to function better in a half court setting.(playing the bench more w/ the starters has also led to more minutes per game for the starters)

Again I say, Flip's biggest influence to our team has been bench development. And it will pay huge dividends as the season delves into the playoffs. And I cannot wait for Hunter to return!!! We will consistently go 10 dep....something that was unheard of under LB.

Basically, Flip has been a nice change of pace for the Pistons. We needed to flex our offense muscle a little. He's given us that opportunity. Wheteher it be with Flip or LB or Carlisle, we still have 5 great players. We have 5 players that know how to win. They are tested. They are hungry. Flip will not neccesarily win or lose any games for us this year. If we are lucky enough to make the Finals, it will not be because of Flip. If we lose in the Finals, I do not think we will have Flip to blame.

In contrast to that, I personally do blame LB for our loss in game 7. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, LB's decision to sit Sheed and Dice, and allow Prince to (attempt to) guard TD cost us the game. Yes, Sheed ed up in game 5. But game 7 is where you give your everything. There are no second chances. In that instance, LB screwed us.

To answer the basic question of the thread, I do not think Flip will really have any serious impact on how the Pistons do in the playoffs. If anything, I'll say it will be a positive in that the atmosphere is better. The difference is having between a "players coach" and a hard ass. IMO younger untested players tend to need the hard ass, whereas the veteran players do better w/ a players coach who allows the players to be themselves and do their thing. Give me Flip over LB any day.

Alot has been mentioned about minutes played. I personally do not remember Piston fans moaning about fatigue due to the minutes played by our players. Much like FP22 stated, I recall alot of concern due to how many "playoff" minutes the guys had to play..in particular Tay and Ben. But that had more to do w/ 6 and 7 game series as opposed to regular season minutes. I might have simply ignored it, as it sounds too much like excuse making to me. I don't know. So I cannot answer for those people. I will say though that I have no qualms with our starters getting 35-38 minutes a game.

If you look at any team in the league, you will find their "star" player or players getting 35+ minutes every game. Detroit is different from many teams in that it has 5 pseudo stars as their starters. All 5 guys rank consistently as being in the top 6 at their respective positions. You'd typically expect a top 6 player at any position to play 35+minutes. Teams like the Spurs,Nets,Warriors,Dallas,Suns,Heat,Cavs,Bucks may be able to boast 3 such players, but I cannot name a single team other than Detroit that has more than 3 players that should get those type of minutes.

[SequSpur]

Damn, yall are some essay writing mofos.

Spurs in Four.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Damn, yall are some essay writing mofos.

LOL ! those are 2 back to back long ass posts.......

[5ToolMan]

Right. Both my points remain to be seen. But any comment on this thread remain to be seen. The pistons new style brings them a better regular season record. So what makes people think Flip will screw things up in the playoffs? Because of his career record? Well it's just the same case that everyone at the beginning of the season predicted the pistons would be only the 4th seed in the EC because LB was gone. Now people start to predict the pistons won't be winning the playoffs no matter how good they do in the regular season, because they have a coach who has not won any playoffs.
So before you want me to prove why Flip won't make the pistons worse, can you prove me why he will screw them up?

One more thing, Flip has only coached two teams so far in his career, Timberwolves and the Pistons. Compare this two teams, I say the pistons > Flip's old timeberwolves team. Say it if you don't agree. That team had no chance to win the lakers back to then. If Shaq is 28 or younger now the pistons would have little chance to beat the miami too.

I don't think too many expected the absence of Larry to effect the Pistons much. I know I sure did not. Flip is a solid offensive coach. And he has a team that has been drilled for two years on defense.

In an earlier post, I said people make too much of Flip's supposed playoff failures. Simply put, the Wolves were never good enough to gain home court advantage except in 2004. That year, they made it all the way to the WCF's. You can't really hold that loss on Flip, as the Lakers were simply a more seasoned playoff winner, expecially after righting the ship against the Spurs.

Still, I see the Piston's increased use of jump shots, especially three point shots, as potential problems in the playoffs. Team trends built during 82 game seasons are hard to break. Once defensive intensity picks up and shooters legs tire, playoff teams thrive on more inside-outside execution.

[Darrin]

Interesting thread. Love the heated discussions. I'll see if I can add a little to it!

I personally lay more of the blame on Garnett. I lay blame on the lower quality of supporting casts (not all years...but some years). I blame McHale for being a poor GM. The Joe Smith fiasco. The drafting and trading of Starbury. I blame the lack of chemistry. It always seemed that they had 2 new starters every year. Look at how many different players the T-Wolves had in the last 10 years. It's amazing how many players have come and gone. The team never seemed to have alot of consistency, due to injury or at ude, year in, year out. Perhaps some of that is excuse making, but IMO they are all factors that led to them not being great playoff teams.

I blame McHale for not keeping the talent and addressing the team's needs. KG and Flip did their jobs. I've always hated that some people tried to characterize KG as Keith Van Horn, or something, especially after seeing how the flex offense works up close (the post options on offense are the fourth to sixth options).


While I say Flip has taken too much blame through the years, I also think he is getting a little too much credit this year. (And I believe he'd be the first person to agree w/ me) The bottom line is that the Pistons are a Championship tested and proven team. The trust, chemistry and skills were already there. Sure, Flip has opened up the offense, but these guys already know how to play. They already know how to win. They are truly driven this year. The loss to the Spurs hurt. All of the credit/love that LB received hurt.

The (Pistons players) do want to prove that THEY are the reason for their success, and not their coach.

Amen. The Pistons are more focused than I have seen this cast of characters. This team's focus on the Championship reminds me of the 2001-02 squad's focus on the Division le and winning a playoff series (Ben Wallace the only Piston to remain on that team).

Our D didn't come from LB. If anything, Carlisle deserves soooo much more credit than he will ever receive. He brought the D to the "D". LB simply adopted a great team. IMO Carlisle would also have also won the Championship if he was still our boss man.

Don't get me wrong, Larry Brown has made these Pistons players better. But you're right. You may not look at the numbers, but I do. The only starter to change from 2000-01 and 2001-02 was Cliff Robinson for Joe Smith (Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Mike Curry, Ben Wallace).

2000-01 APPG: 97.3 PPG
2001-02 APPG: 92.2 PPG

Results:
2000-01: 32-50 (10th in Conference)
2001-02: 50-32 (2nd in Conference)

We knew that the players had more offensive ability. We hated the scoring slumps. Flip has simply let them do their thing. Offensively, Rip and Chauncey are showing what they've always had the ability to do. It's definetly a much more fun team to watch.

Once again, great point. The Pistons had a game last season they didn't SCORE A FIELD GOAL IN THE FOURTH QUARTER...and they won, 64-62 over Utah. The scoring droughts would take a blowout win and make it a close contest, and this was wearing down our players.

Alot has been mentioned about minutes played. I personally do not remember Piston fans moaning about fatigue due to the minutes played by our players.

This fan did, although it generally manifested itself in other indirect arguments - the list of backup point guards (Smush Parker, Anthony Goldwire, Horace Jenkins, finally trading for Carlos Arroyo), the lack of a bench, the horrific performances against Atlanta, Chicago, and Charlotte, mostly on back-to-backs. LB ripping his reserves out of a game because they allowed Toronto to cut the lead to 8. This wasn't just a team searching for a bench or motivation, but conserving energy for a long playoff run. The players even said so much.

If you look at any team in the league, you will find their "star" player or players getting 35+ minutes every game. Detroit is different from many teams in that it has 5 pseudo stars as their starters. All 5 guys rank consistently as being in the top 6 at their respective positions. You'd typically expect a top 6 player at any position to play 35+minutes. Teams like the Spurs,Nets,Warriors,Dallas,Suns,Heat,Cavs,Bucks may be able to boast 3 such players, but I cannot name a single team other than Detroit that has more than 3 players that should get those type of minutes.

This is true, but when the starters are carrying the load the entire time they are on the floor, that's where the problems start to arise. That's been the difference this season; Arroyo, Delfino, Evans, and McDyess all can make plays. The same could not be said of Dupree, Ham, and Arroyo on both sides of the court, while Hunter couldn't contribute to the offense. That meant if Billups was off the floor, Arroyo was still running offensive sets for Hamilton. If Dupree is in for Prince, that's just one less offensive option. Do you see what I mean when I say the minutes are less wearing on the Pistons starters? While they are still the best players the Pistons have, the bench can make plays.

[Darrin]

I don't think too many expected the absence of Larry to effect the Pistons much. I know I sure did not. Flip is a solid offensive coach. And he has a team that has been drilled for two years on defense.

Still, I see the Piston's increased use of jump shots, especially three point shots, as potential problems in the playoffs. Team trends built during 82 game seasons are hard to break. Once defensive intensity picks up and shooters legs tire, playoff teams thrive on more inside-outside execution.

Since this team plays for Championships, I find these two paragraphs contradicting each other. The idea of inside-outside has been used this season; the Pistons are using jumpshots because they can do so effectively. Honestly, the New Jersey game is the first time this season I have seen them settle for jumpers.

We're in the dog days and that means that teams are starting to mail it in. The first options in the flex are perimeter-oriented, and the first high-percentage shot is the one taken. So it leaves one with the impression the Pistons prefer to score on the perimeter. If you've seen some of their grind-it-out wins (at Houston, at Memphis) they do not lack offensive weapons on the inside.

[Tanya]

I don't think too many expected the absence of Larry to effect the Pistons much. I know I sure did not. Flip is a solid offensive coach. And he has a team that has been drilled for two years on defense.

In an earlier post, I said people make too much of Flip's supposed playoff failures. Simply put, the Wolves were never good enough to gain home court advantage except in 2004. That year, they made it all the way to the WCF's. You can't really hold that loss on Flip, as the Lakers were simply a more seasoned playoff winner, expecially after righting the ship against the Spurs.

Still, I see the Piston's increased use of jump shots, especially three point shots, as potential problems in the playoffs. Team trends built during 82 game seasons are hard to break. Once defensive intensity picks up and shooters legs tire, playoff teams thrive on more inside-outside execution.

I have no problem with the jump shots. Can you explain why that's a potential problem? Sorry if I am wasting your time. Rip is the best mid-jumper shooter. Chauncey is not Tony Parker. Tay and Sheed both can score inside and outside. There is no need to ask Rip and Chauncey to score more in the paint if their jump shots fall. Manu is agressive but the way he drives to the basket always scare me alot because he could easily get injured.

Now about the 3 pointers. The pistons have four players that can hit 3's: Chauncey, Rip, Tay and Sheed. If they are wide open, shoot them! Why not? The Spurs need Bowen and Horry to hit 3's. The Miami need Walker and Payton to hit 3's too. Again, I don't think this is a problem, as long as they don't shoot 3's crazy like the game is a 3-pointer contest.