Note to Isiah

[ChumpDumper]

I don't see Ferry letting go of LBJ whether LBJ wants it or not...but I have a hunch LBJ would love to go play for Isiah.


There have long been rumors of Garnett willing to play for the Knicks(and Chicago) if he ever left Minny.

The Knicks could give up Jalen Rose and Mo Taylor for Garnett and put the TWolves payroll at 25 million following next season...

That's why I asked about the no-trade clause -- Chicago can put together a much more attractive trade package with their young players -- and perhaps the Knicks overall #1.

[whottt]

TAke it up with Forbes you idiot -- they are losing money equal to 10% of their total value this season alone.

Tell me how that is good.

The value of the franchise has increased by about 75 million per season since Isiah took over as GM...

As opposed to a combined total of 6 million in the 4 years preceeding his hiring...


IOW...it's ing NY...you don't have to win to make money...but the one thing you can never do is get cheap or fail to make headlines.

Imagine how much they'd be losing if they hadn't hired Larry Brown.

And BTW...I'd take all sports franchise income with a grain of salt if I were you...particularly that of those located in big markets.

The Knicks are still 8th in attendance...

[Peter]

Well, it's not a good thing to lose money, but whottt's point about the valuation going up is pertinent. The point is that NY is a market in which a team can suck and endure a minimal financial impact, if not make out. Running a loss and seeing an increase in the valuation fits the bill. It's not, say a Utah, Minnesota or New Orleans where operating losses matter more.

[ChumpDumper]

I'd take all sports franchise income with a grain of salt if I were you.

Since they don't fit your agenda, that's obvious. Let me know your methodology for determining income and how it's better than Forbes alright? Just saying it has to be more because New York is "really big" doesn't really cut it.

Imagine how much they'd be losing if they hadn't hired Larry Brown.

Or not taken on all that extra salary. Marbury made the difference. Brown really just added to the losses since he's not going to get any players that will work for him.

Look, they are losing money this year, accept it. Zeke is taking all the rope Dolan has let loose. Whether he hangs himself remains to be seen - but it looks like his only hope is landing one of the two players you mentioned. I woudn't say either is likely.

[Bruno]

And he couldn't even dent Brown's rotation, while Lee has...Lee is a good solid player and I gurantee you if the Spurs could get him for Nazr after this season they would do it in a heartbeat.

Lee has played SF over journeymen Barnes, Woods...), PF (Malik Rose) and injured player (Richardson) in one of the worst team in the league.
Nazr was in a playoff team behind better players (like Ratliff)
You can guarantee what you want but you aren't the Spurs, I wouldn't do a Nazr/Lee trade.

Well most teams in the NBA would give up a lottery pick for Curry...lazy or not. He's still. one of the most talented bigmen in the league and he has proven NBA talent...I don't think the Knicks anticipated being this bad this year, and they definitely don't anticipate it for next year...but I don't see anyone who is going to solve their problems as the #1 pick this year...another F?

But few teams will give up a top3 pick for Curry.
The pick could have been top3 or top5 protected.
A good GM aticipate, the Spurs pick traded during the Malik/Nazr trade is top10 protected this year : do you really think Spurs anticipate being a lotery team this year.
A player like Aldridge can really help NYK.

Excepting the heart condition you just described 99% of the C's in the NBA...including Shaq...who would you have prefered he get? Tim Duncan? Empty space?

False, watch games and look at some stats.
Never put Shaq and Curry in the same sentence.
A guy like Magloire was a better choice than Curry. (especially when your PF is too a poor defender :Channing Frye)

And I don't imagine he is planning on keeping all those guards...but then again, at my worst, I have the memory capacity of at least a re ed horse, unlike yourself, and can easily recall Isiah's penchant for frequent trades.

Marbury, Francis and Crawford are way overpaid, they aren't good trade assets. Robinson has little value.

I wonder why Isiah probably has a sensitive spot to that type of criticism...
Do you even remember who he gave up to get Marbury?

They gave up scrubs + two first round picks + they take Penny's contract.
Without this trade they could have been under the cap for the 06 summer and have more picks. FA + draft is still the best way to rebuild.
Knicks are now in a dead end street with tons of untradable players (because of their contracts).

[Kori Ellis]

Thanks to Isiah for bring Whottt back to form.

[whottt]

That's why I asked about the no-trade clause -- Chicago can put together a much more attractive trade package with their young players -- and perhaps the Knicks overall #1.

They could...but I do imagine Garnett has a no trade clause, and I don't think he wants to go be another one man team...which is what he'd be after Chicago makes that trade.

[Peter]

NY has way more leeway in taking on guaranteed salary than in other markets. That does mean that they can make moves that others cannot. That doesn't necessarily mean that those moves are good moves, but they have that flexibility, a flexibility which plenty of other NBA franchises do not.

[ChumpDumper]

He can't quit Zeke.

[Horry For 3!]

I wonder when the Knicks will fire Isiah. He is the worst GM ever

[Peter]

I wonder when the Knicks will fire Isiah. He is the worst GM ever

Nah, they fired the worst one:

[Bruno]

I wonder when the Knicks will fire Isiah. He is the worst GM ever

maybe soon : http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/9273417

[Horry For 3!]

Nah, they fired the worst one:

goofy ass dude

[SequSpur]

Whottt is high.

The Knicks are almost the worst team in the history of the NBA.

with Larry Brown as the coach.

[SenorSpur]

So if the Knicks supposedly have all this talent, why are they winning? I'll tell you why. Because they're mostly a bunch of selfish, whiny bas s who have no concept of how to play defense or play together.

What has Francis ever done in his career? Same with Marbury? How about Richardson and Crawford? Anybody remember Jerome James and his "trash bad preening" after his "one-series wonder" performance in last year's playoffs?

All these guys have ever done is worry about getting their shots, making their numbers, and counting their checks.

The selfish, egocentric, behavior is not just limited to the court. When he's not "browbeating" the players, Larry's busy openly lusting after other players that he "doesn't have" on the roster. The players who hate Larry's ing run directly to Isiah's office.

Meanwhile, Isiah is busy "flirting" with the female management and "wielding implied power" to make nonsensical trades. I heard today that the owner has now decided that Isiah must now clear all trades with him first.

Make no mistake about it. The coach and GM don't like each other. They don't talk to one another. Which explains why the owner had to summon both to his office today for a "meeting of the minds."

Bad trades. Bad decisions, Bad management. It's a mess that has developed over years and will take years to fix - no matter who is the coach and the GM.

[JamStone]

December 2003, Isiah Thomas is hired by the New York Knicks. The current roster of the 2003-04 New York Knicks when Thomas took over was the following:

Charlie Ward > Howard Eisley > Frank Williams
Allan Houston > Shandon Anderson
Keith Van Horn > Clarence Weatherspoon
Kurt Thomas > Antonio McDyess > Michael Sweetney > Maciej Lampe
Dikembe Mutombo > Michael Doleac > Ot a Harrington > Slavko Vranes

Realize this was basically ONLY TWO YEARS AGO. The financial situation was already a mess with the Knicks. Had Isiah just sit on the contracts and waited for them to expire, the same people that criticize Thomas now would have been calling for his head in much the same way: "Why did we hire this guy if he's not going to do anything?" or "Shouldn't Isiah bring some talent in here to improve the ballclub?" or "Why is he getting expired contracts when Dolan doesn't mind spending?"

It was a catch-22 because of the state the Knicks were already in. Two years. Only two years later ...

Charlie Ward, the starting point guard then, is retired.

Howard Eisley, the main back-up point guard, is fighting for 10 day contracts to stay in the league.

Frank Williams, Layden's first round draft pick point guard of the future, is out of the league.

Allan Houston, the franchised player, is retired.

Shandon Anderson, the main back-up at both the shooting guard and small forward positions, is essentially the twelfth man off the Miami Heat bench, 9th man, if you want to be nice.

Keith Van Horn, the starting small forward, is doing much better in a new environment as a power forward back-up to Dirk Nowitzki. But, because he could shoot 3-pointers, Layden was convinced he could be a starting small forward in the league.

Clarence Weatherspoon, who because of the roster mostly logged minutes as a small forward, is gone from the NBA. Teresa Weatherspoon is a better basketball player.

Kurt Thomas, one of the few solid players Layden kept around, also was a player who sticked around under Isiah Thomas. He was a solid player who liked playing for the Knicks but did not get along with Isiah. They parted ways, and Isiah got some value for him in Quentin Richardson and Nate Robinson. It's not much and both have disappointed, but it's something.

Antonio McDyess, who is now much better and more fully recovered from knee injury, was used to get Stephon Marbury. Most people didn't expect McDyess to be as good as he is now, but then again, Phoenix and Denver gave up on him also. As bad as Marbury appears when looking also at his contract, when he was first traded for, ticket sales and jersey sales went up for the Knicks. It still is a business.

Michael Sweetney, Layden's last first round draft pick, is not good.

Maciej Lampe, Layden's other draft pick from 2003, is not good

Dikembe Mutombo, who Layden pegged to anchor the Knicks' defense, even back in 2004 was old and not good.

Michael Doleac, a decent back-up center, was worth giving up to get Nazr Mohammed at the time.

Ot a Harrington, a Layden favorite, was and is still an undersized center who at best could be a decent fourth big man off the bench. Getting a dynamic player like Jamal Crawford for Ot a and Dikembe was worth the risk, even though Crawford has not worked out as well as Isiah would have hoped for.

Slavko Vranes was Layden's very last pick as a Knicks executive. Late second round pick and was like 8 feet tall. No need for comment. He's no longer in the league.


Look at those players. Six of the 15 aren't even in the league anymore just two years later. Four more shouldn't be in the league anymore. Only five players even really contribute to NBA teams, and only Kurt Thomas is a starter. That's what Isiah Thomas had to work with. Not only was the salary situation already a mess, but the players the Knicks had just two years ago were BAD. Of course, he was going to have to take some bad deals if he wanted to do anything to the roster.

Now, the current Knicks roster:

Stephon Marbury > Nate Robinson
Steve Francis > Jamal Crawford
Jalen Rose > Quentin Richardson > Qyntel Woods
Maurice Taylor > Channing Frye > David Lee > Malik Rose
Eddy Curry > Jerome James > Jackie Butler

The financial situation is still a complete mess, and even worse than 2003-04. There's no debate over that. And, even the talent they do have on the Knicks' current roster is overpaid with bloated contracts. That's true as well. But, there is TALENT. There is YOUTH. Ten or eleven of these 14 players will STILL BE IN THE NBA two years from now, barring career ending injury.

Isiah Thomas can be criticized for many things, taking on huge long-term contracts and making the Knicks a financial nightmare for years to come, giving away draft picks, not finding compatible pieces for team chemistry. All of that is true. But, what he did do was get talent. He got youth. He got some pieces to work with. Maybe another GM would have gone a different direction and done a better job. But, with what Isiah had to start with, are you so sure?

And, one masterful thing Isiah Thomas did, even though it's not the way he would have liked to do it, was get people talking about the Knicks again. The Knicks under Scott Layden became irrelevant. In some ways, especially from a business perspective, that's worse than being horrible. At least people talk about the Knicks. Marbury gave the Knicks jersey sales and ticket sales, at least at the beginning. Eddy Curry did the same thing. Nate Robinson gave Knicks fans something to talk about as well. Larry Brown and Isiah Thomas are both controversial figures who evoke emotion, whether you love them, hate them, despise them, or pity them. You have an opinion.

Isiah Thomas has done a horrible job as Knicks GM so far. He's been very, very bad. But, as bad as he has been, he probably hasn't been as bad as you THINK he has been. He's done some good things. Talent and youth is on the roster where it once wasn't. Buzz, even though it's negative, is around the Knicks. There's no such thing as bad pub, as the old saying goes. People will laugh, but just a few more changes or trades, and the Knicks could be a playoff contending team next year. And, if they are the right changes, tweaks, and additions, the Knicks might even be a pretty good team.

[Peter]

Great post. People seem to forget how horrid of a GM Layden was in NY. Some of it was beyond his control (ie Houston's early retirement), but still, Zeke looks like RC Buford compared to that guy.

[TDMVPDPOY]

knicks team ed up after 99 season, why didnt they retain sprewell n camby?

[SenorSpur]

So the Knicks have gone from bad to worse, or is it worse to bad during the Thomas era.

Sure Scott Layden was a horrible GM. However Thomas is only better because instead sitting on his hands he HAS made moves - many of them questionable at best.

Sure they now have youth, but lack the right type of players to be a respectable team.

If you call having negative publicity, bloated contracts, in-house bickering and bad chemistry a "step-up" from the Layden era - then Thomas has been successful. Anyway saying Thomas is slightly better than Layden is a bit like saying Castro is a slightly better leader than Hitler.

The bottom line is they Knicks still suck. The damage to that team and to the culture of that organization is so wide and so deep that they will contiue to suck for many years to come.

[JamStone]

So the Knicks have gone from bad to worse, or is it worse to bad during the Thomas era.

Sure Scott Layden was a horrible GM. However Thomas is only better because instead sitting on his hands he HAS made moves - many of them questionable at best.

Sure they now have youth, but lack the right type of players to be a respectable team.

If you call having negative publicity, bloated contracts, in-house bickering and bad chemistry a "step-up" from the Layden era - then Thomas has been successful. Anyway saying Thomas is slightly better than Layden is a bit like saying Castro is a slightly better leader than Hitler.

The bottom line is they Knicks still suck. The damage to that team and to the culture of that organization is so wide and so deep that they will contiue to suck for many years to come.

I don't really disagree with anything you said. I was just trying to clear up some things and rebut the notion that Isiah is the "WORST" by showing what he had to work with when he came in. I don't know if it's necessarily bad to worse or worse to bad. I think it's yet to be determined because the players he has now have a longer shelf life to turn things around. As I mentioned, the 2003-04 Knicks team was filled with players who no longer play.

So, if Isiah sits on most of the contracts to let them expire, and makes a few cursory low-level trades and changes, maybe his team is better set up for the future. But, the last two years would not have been any different. The 2004 draft pick Isiah traded in the Marbury trade ended up being Kris Humphries for Utah. Maybe Isiah drafts Jameer Nelson, who was still available. Last year's draft probably would have been the same, as Isiah still probably would have targetted Channing Frye, but he would not have had the David Lee pick. Maybe he still makes the Quentin Richardson-Kurt Thomas trade and with Jameer Nelson already on the roster, maybe Isiah takes New York son Francisco Garcia. Maybe he stills signs Jerome James. But, Houston and Charlie Ward and Howard Eisley would probably still all be gone. McDyess would have become a free agent and would have also likely been gone.

Even though the Knicks didn't make the playoffs last year and won't make the playoffs this year, imagine the Knicks fielding the following team this year:


Jameer Nelson > Frank Williams
Quentin Richardson > Francisco Garcia
Keith Van Horn > Trevor Ariza
Channing Frye > Ot a Harrington > Michael Sweetney
Jerome James > Michael Doleac


With Van Horn's contract expiring, perhaps the Knicks would be in a much better position financially. But, is this team much better than the current one, or a better question is whether this team is better suited to win more games? Would a big name free agent still want to come to the Knicks with this roster? Would Thomas be able to pull of a big sign-and-trade deal with the pieces he has on this hypothetical roster?

All of this is of course conjecture. I don't blame anyone for harsh criticism of Zeke for the trades he's made or the contracts he's taken on. I'm just saying look at the alternative. If he had sit on most of those contracts and only made a few cursory trades and changes, the Knicks are still probably looking at two lottery seasons the last two years. And, there would have been no buzz from the Marbury and Curry acquisitions. There probably would have been no Larry Brown ... well, maybe, maybe not. And, what top tier stars would want to come to New York to play with Quentin Richardson and Jerome James? And, with no real trade assets, which stars under contract would be able to come to New York?

Think in the alternative when genuinely and thoroughly evaluating Isiah Thomas. He's made some horrible decisions over the last two years. There's no question about it. But, in most of those instances, it was better than the alternative.

Knicks fans would still be finding their team in the lottery, except even more of them would care less. And, there would be no controversy except that the Knicks suck. How many ways can you write that in a sports article? Yes, negative publicity is better than no publicity. It's better than nothing ...