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Congrats to Bowen.
It must be because of his steals. Even that shows his lack of defense because he gambles on almost every play = easy baskets.
i still can't believe what a pro hinrich has become. he was super athletic in college but he has developed one of a jumpshot, as well as playing solid d. his length definitely helps out on the defensive end.
Congrats to Bowen.
washington and seattle are even worse then the suns on defense. now thats saying something.Congrats to Bowen.
I think you are mistaken. The suns practically roll out the carpet for you to score so they can get their uptempo style going. That is the worst defensive team in the nba over last 10 years.
nah my bad. I forgot about the knicks.
yup
Ben Wallace is a bad mutha a.
But props to Bruuuuuce. Nobody hustles like he can.
So which is it Darrin and FreshPrince22? Is he the third best defensive center all-time or would he have to hide out as Rodman-lite if he were in the land of the real giants?
btw Pistons' fans who's is/was better Rodman or Wallace?
congrats to Bruce. he atleast deserved that.
Bruce is no. 1!!
I was told there would be no math...
I Agree, he should have been on the first team, give the guy a break, he played the whole season on one foot and ended up with 11.1 Rpg and 2 BLKS PER GAME. Thats just messed up.
So, now suddenly, these sport writers who didn't vote Bowen as DPOY, now suddenly have credibility because of what they say about Tim Duncan?
I happen to believe that Duncan is the best PF ever ............. but, you can't start using that argument ............ If they're smart enough to say that Tim Duncan is the best PF of all times, then they're smart enough to vote Ben Wallace over Bowen.
Does that not make sense?
The way I see it in terms of opinions it's:
Coaches and GMS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> collective group of sportswiters >>> your average fan
That would put Bruce as DPOY by the coaches and given a choice of JamStone or NBA writers opinion on Duncan, Malone, Barkley I'd say writers>>>>> JamStone.
Bruce "The real 2006 DPOY"
picnroll,
Why did you bring me back into the argument? You are confusing logics.
I never said that Tim Duncan WAS NOT the best power forward ever to play the game. In fact, I believe he is the best ever at the position.
My argument was that if he played in the era of Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, then he would not have been a perennial first team all NBA selection, and he would most of his career be a third all NBA selection after Barkley and Malone. And, being that as it would be, along with the fact he would not have won any NBA les playing in that era, he would not be considered the best power forward ever. And, that is not contrary to sportswriters saying Tim Duncan is the best ever, since those are two different arguments.
You were the one who introduced this line of arguments with your "if Ben Wallace played during the David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwan era" crap. Well, since I flipped the same type of thinking on Duncan, all of a sudden you use contemporary opinions of sportswriters to refute that? Those sportswriters weren't posed the same scenerio, you idiot. Sportswriters contending that Duncan is the best power forward does not rebut what I'm saying.
Learn how to follow logic and form arguments.
You're assuming Duncan wouldn't have been on a compe ive team so he would have been stranded on an island by himself. Let's role back the clock and bring him into the league with the Spurs in the DRob era of Barkley and Malone.
Duncan comes into the league in 1989 with the Spurs joining a DRob drafted in 1987 DRob and Sean Elliott drafted that year as well. And since they had TD Spurs have no need to trade Alvin Robertson for Terry mings. So you have:
Center - DRob
PF - TD
SF - Sean Elliott
SG - Alvin Robertson
PG, let's say they make that trade for Rod Strickland. they made that year
Spurs now would have a load of les and MJ would be short a few. And TD would be the greatest PF of all time and DRob would be up there in the rarified air of Chamberlain and Russell.
That team still wouldn't beat the Pistons or Bulls of that era...
LMFAO.
On and by '91 Pistons were starting to suck ass.
LMFAO that you think they would. BTW, I like how you just inserted TD and Elliott in the same draft year considering they were both top 3 selections.
Well that argument is stupid, especially when you consider Barkley himself has said TD is the best PF to ever play the game.
I don't think TD would've been 1st teamer every yr, but it's easy to say at least half the time he would've and more times than those two.
I'm not saying the would've, but to say the wouldn't is wrong also.
If you put TD on that team with a yound DRob and prime Alvin and young Sean. That probably would've been one of the top 3 best defensive teams to ever play the game. They would've given any team a run for their money.
The argument is re ed. It's pure conjecture which was the heart of Jam's point.
Would TD be the same player in an era where defense/physical play were 10x stronger than it is today? Maybe, maybe not...
Ohh boy. I would like to see Timmy in eighties
Kind of amusing, when this is known as the era of the power forward and Duncan is dominating, yet JamStone says he'd be a 3rd teamer in the past.
Original point was Ben is playing inwhat may be the weakest era ever for centers, particularly now that Shaq is pretty much done. I mean Yao is no better than Rik Smits and he's considered the best center today.
Thank you, DisgruntledLionsFan, for being one of the few posters to actually get what I'm saying.
At the heart of this line of theorizing is that all of it is CONJECTURE.
And, that's what my original point was from the beginning after picnroll was the FIRST to throw in the "what if" argument about Ben playing in the era of Hakeem and D-Rob and Mourning. All of it is unproveable.
And, fine, Charles Barkley said Tim is the best PF ever. Would he feel the same if Tim Duncan didn't win three championships or played in his era? That was the premise of picnroll's argument of putting Ben in a different era. Do you get it yet?
And, Disgruntled also found the other flaw in your "Put Tim on the 1989 squad" when in fact if he was, Sean Elliot would not have been a Spur.
Again, a lot of different direct and indirect consequenses would have resulted from putting a player in a different era.
Go ahead and put Ben in the era of Mourning and Hakeem of the early 1990s. What the Grant Hill-Allan Houston Pistons team really lacked was a true rebounder and interior defender. They didn't lack for scoring. In fact, put Ben on that team with not much help in the frontcourt, and he averages 15 rebounds a game like he did in 2002-03. Plus there was no offensive foul half circle under the basket. No more foul calls for standing in the half circle. Another advantage for Ben.
You see, the point is you can make plenty of arguments for whatever your contention is when you put a player back in the past. It's still all CONJECTURE. And, that's my point by putting Tim Duncan back in the 1980s. Convenient how you wanted to change it from 1983 (as I first argued) to 1989 just so you could make a stronger argument for Tim. Your 1989 argument only supports the idea that Tim Duncan became as good as he was because of David Robinson.
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