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  1. #76
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Do you think this didn't happen? Are you saying it is impossible? Didn't you expect something like this to happen? Are you that far to the right? Your leader has already said "Mission accomplished".

    I am saying nothing has been proven one way or the other.
    But you are saying it has been alleged so it must be true.
    It could happen. I never expect nor do I hope anything can happen that
    will put this country, our fighting personnel or even you in a
    bad light. Things do happen, but I will tell you one damn
    thing, until you have been placed in a situation where you
    are being shot at and have the fear and apprehension that
    they are facing don't you be so damn quick to judge. You
    have no idea how you would respond or react.

    One other thing. I have no leader. I have a President that
    was duly elected. He is President until such time as THE
    PEOPLE of this country elect a new President. Unfortunately
    there are some like you that have politics so far out in
    left field that you cant see the forest for the trees. You
    may have a leader, but I don't. I am quite capable of
    thinking for myself and making my own decisions.

  2. #77
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    Mister, you are the one that made the accusations. Not me.
    You are the one that said our troops were guilty before
    the investigation has been completed. I never heard from
    you before about anyone being beheaded. And how do
    you know they were INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Haven't they
    used women and children to carry their bombs? How bout
    we wait until the results of the investigation are completed.
    We damn sure know one thing, don't we, those that are
    guilty of any crime will be punished. Now we do know that
    don't we. Who the started the investigation, damn
    sure wasn't Time magazine or some other damn media
    group. It was the military themselves and our government.
    I am just sick and tired of everyone wanting to jump on
    our troops ass about something that may or not be true.
    If it is true, someone will pay and everyone damn sure
    knows that. You are most of the time willing to trash
    our government and troops. Well I am not. I wont
    protect the guilty but I am damn sure going to sure they
    are guilty. And I don't hear all of you holy than thou types
    putting anything on the site about those mean old
    terrorist killed another 30 civilians today. Now do you.
    damn, its like talking to a wall... It doesn't matter who started the investigation, and this isn't about the military! This is about those few soldiers that commited this crime. I don't care if Time magazine or the Pentagon performed the investigation!

    and again WHO THE IS TRASHING YOUR TROOPS!!?? Granted people in this forum criticise Bush's government, and I for one think he is doing a lousy job at it, but that has nothing to do with this case, and this is certainly not a knock on "your troops".

    oh and by the way, the reason I'm not in here complaining about the people killed by terrorism is because it has become something I've come to expect from people like that. Would you rather I hold your American troops to those same standards as I do terrorists?

  3. #78
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I run into the "if you don't support Bush and the war you are with the terrorists" bull all the time. I hate terrorism with a passion and realize it must be dealt with but call it what it is and don't use WMD or some other bull reason to fight it.
    I hate it when I hear about another terrorists attack and the innocent victims that are slaughtered.
    But I will not excuse my fellow Marines for crimes (alledgedly) committed during war but we need to know ALL the facts.
    I think the initial cover up, if indeed it was a cover up, makes things look worse. Just like the Pat Tillman issue when the military tries to change the facts of what really happened it almost always comes back to bite them in the ass.
    Semper Fi! I support our troops 1000%. A few bad men should not tarnish the reputation of the finest fighting men and women in the world.

  4. #79
    Believe.
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    Mister, you are the one that made the accusations. Not me.
    You are the one that said our troops were guilty before
    the investigation has been completed. I never heard from
    you before about anyone being beheaded. And how do
    you know they were INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Haven't they
    used women and children to carry their bombs? How bout
    we wait until the results of the investigation are completed.
    We damn sure know one thing, don't we, those that are
    guilty of any crime will be punished. Now we do know that
    don't we. Who the started the investigation, damn
    sure wasn't Time magazine or some other damn media
    group. It was the military themselves and our government.
    I am just sick and tired of everyone wanting to jump on
    our troops ass about something that may or not be true.
    If it is true, someone will pay and everyone damn sure
    knows that. You are most of the time willing to trash
    our government and troops. Well I am not. I wont
    protect the guilty but I am damn sure going to sure they
    are guilty. And I don't hear all of you holy than thou types
    putting anything on the site about those mean old
    terrorist killed another 30 civilians today. Now do you.
    It's not the crime, it's the coverup.

    From Reuters:

    Defense officials previously have said a preliminary military probe conducted in February and March found evidence that the Marines involved in the incident gave a false account of what happened.

    The initial military statement on the incident said 15 civilians were killed in the explosion of a roadside bomb that also claimed the life of Marine Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas. But the preliminary investigation included forensic data showing the civilians died from bullet wounds.

    The defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Bargewell was looking at whether higher ranking officers looked aggressively enough into what actually happened in Haditha. The official said any incident in which a U.S. Marine is killed normally "gets looked at pretty carefully."

  5. #80
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    I run into the "if you don't support Bush and the war you are with the terrorists" bull all the time. I hate terrorism with a passion and realize it must be dealt with but call it what it is and don't use WMD or some other bull reason to fight it.
    I hate it when I hear about another terrorists attack and the innocent victims that are slaughtered.
    But I will not excuse my fellow Marines for crimes (alledgedly) committed during war but we need to know ALL the facts.
    I think the initial cover up, if indeed it was a cover up, makes things look worse. Just like the Pat Tillman issue when the military tries to change the facts of what really happened it almost always comes back to bite them in the ass.
    Semper Fi! I support our troops 1000%. A few bad men should not tarnish the reputation of the finest fighting men and women in the world.
    I agree. A few bad men will not tarnish the reputation of the
    finest fighting men and women in the world. The military
    is made up of our society. There are people in there that
    do bad things. But I would just hope that everyone hangs
    fire until the facts are known. The solace is that we know
    justice will be done if someone has committed a crime.
    And terrible crime it will be if innocent people were killed,
    be they men, women or children.

    I have no desire to rehash the WMD crap any more. We
    are in the war, right, wrong or indifferent. In my opinion
    it is one we didn't really ask for. And I repeat in my
    opinion. We were attacked and had many killed by the
    same terrorist we are fighting now. And again I don't ask
    anyone to agree with me. But again I don't have to agree
    with you either if you disagree with me. But anyhow. I
    guess I have made my point several times over....

  6. #81
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    It's not the crime, it's the coverup.

    From Reuters:

    Defense officials previously have said a preliminary military probe conducted in February and March found evidence that the Marines involved in the incident gave a false account of what happened.

    The initial military statement on the incident said 15 civilians were killed in the explosion of a roadside bomb that also claimed the life of Marine Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas. But the preliminary investigation included forensic data showing the civilians died from bullet wounds.

    The defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Bargewell was looking at whether higher ranking officers looked aggressively enough into what actually happened in Haditha. The official said any incident in which a U.S. Marine is killed normally "gets looked at pretty carefully."
    What coverup, by the initial report or by our government?
    Someone does a bad thing, they lie. Our military found
    the lie and started a complete investigation. Is that a
    coverup? Don't confuse lying with coverup. Most people
    consider "coverup" something government does to
    coverup a misdeed. They didn't. The people on the scene
    may have screwed up badly and lied to protect their butt.
    But obviously someone within the chain of command didn't
    buy the story. Or just maybe someone who witnessed the
    deed reported them, just as it should have been reported.

  7. #82
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    What a ing mess.

  8. #83
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    What coverup, by the initial report or by our government?
    Someone does a bad thing, they lie. Our military found
    the lie and started a complete investigation. Is that a
    coverup? Don't confuse lying with coverup. Most people
    consider "coverup" something government does to
    coverup a misdeed. They didn't. The people on the scene
    may have screwed up badly and lied to protect their butt.
    But obviously someone within the chain of command didn't
    buy the story. Or just maybe someone who witnessed the
    deed reported them, just as it should have been reported.
    Let's be honest, the Marines didn't start a serious investigation until after TIME mag showed them the story that they were about to run about the incident in Haditha. According to sources, there were many Army brass there the day after the incident happened investigating the shootings. Put one and one together and you get a cover-up. It's really not that complicated.

  9. #84
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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    I'll tell you what this has to do with it. First, a crime has been
    alledged. It has not been proven. Second, I never hear
    all the whaling and crying when innocents are killed
    by the terrorist. Only when the military does something
    that appears out of line. No you have your sense of
    morality all screwed up. I want to hear you condemn the
    other side when they blow the out of innocents walking
    down the street shopping. When they blow the back of
    someones head off because they are joining a police force.
    Where he is you outrage, mister goody two shoes.
    I have no double standards. But the one thing I do know
    if someone did something wrong.......they will be punished
    by our side, and punished severely. Possibly by death. I
    ask you. Will the other side do the same? no they
    want. They will be praised, by some here on this forum.
    So get off my butt and get a friggin life.
    On second:
    Double standard? yes, but terrorist didn't swear to follow the laws, soldiers have. It similar when a policeman breaks the law - it's much worse if the ones that should be protecting and enforcing the laws are the ones that break them.
    we already know terrorist are s bags, i would like to think US army is better than that.

  10. #85
    chode bloadin' chode_regulator's Avatar
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    damn straight mother er

    to be honest, its a ed up situation. no one here knows what happens. no one knows why it happened. all i know is its easy as for you people to sit back and speculate and question why marines/soldiers do and arm chair quarterback their actions.

    to the person who posted the question about what if it was your friend/cousin/brother who got killed in the house. well what if it was your friend/cousin/brother/fellow marine who got killed by a roadside bomb fighting for a country you dont give a about and are trying to protect, and they try to kill you? what then? do you think you dont feel the same heart ripping feeling? theres several people in my squadron who have been shot down and also a couple who have landed and gone to save those who got shot down. in my profession, though in some ways not as dangerous as grunts, in others is more so. i dont know what i would do/will do when the first person i know dies in a crash bc some raghead shot down the helicopter that was trying to bring supplies to some random outpost iraqi city to try and bring help/relief. its a ed up situation for all involved.
    was it wrong yes. should we hold ourselved to higher standards, yes? but how come yall arent on here bithcing and comlaining everytime you read about a murder that someon commited in the heat of the moment? why is war different?

  11. #86
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    damn straight mother er

    to be honest, its a ed up situation. no one here knows what happens. no one knows why it happened. all i know is its easy as for you people to sit back and speculate and question why marines/soldiers do and arm chair quarterback their actions.

    to the person who posted the question about what if it was your friend/cousin/brother who got killed in the house. well what if it was your friend/cousin/brother/fellow marine who got killed by a roadside bomb fighting for a country you dont give a about and are trying to protect, and they try to kill you? what then? do you think you dont feel the same heart ripping feeling? theres several people in my squadron who have been shot down and also a couple who have landed and gone to save those who got shot down. in my profession, though in some ways not as dangerous as grunts, in others is more so. i dont know what i would do/will do when the first person i know dies in a crash bc some raghead shot down the helicopter that was trying to bring supplies to some random outpost iraqi city to try and bring help/relief. its a ed up situation for all involved.
    was it wrong yes. should we hold ourselved to higher standards, yes? but how come yall arent on here bithcing and comlaining everytime you read about a murder that someon commited in the heat of the moment? why is war different?
    this is supposedly the senseless murder of 24 people! I seriously don't get where you're coming from. Your argument is a double edge sword buddy. Its true, people aren't in here complaining about every day murders, however, you wouldn't be defending an average every day murder either would you? The only reason you're advocating for these people is because they are american marines. I think that is bull .

    Its all good and well to wait for the results of the investigation, but to try and make sense out of such a thing... to try and lessen its severity and importance by compairing it to everyday crimes... thats just stupid.
    Last edited by MaNuMaNiA; 06-03-2006 at 01:44 PM.

  12. #87
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    manumania

    they are not soldiers they are marines
    there changed it

  13. #88
    chode bloadin' chode_regulator's Avatar
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    thats just stupid.
    youre stupid


    but seriously, im nto trying to downplay it. but just bc its war makes it different from a normal crime? who gets to make that decision?

  14. #89
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    youre stupid


    but seriously, im nto trying to downplay it. but just bc its war makes it different from a normal crime? who gets to make that decision?
    its stupid to compare to a normal crime because ITS NOT A NORMAL CRIME!! its the slaughter of 24 innocent civilians! why is it so hard for you to understand that? or is it that you don't want to understand?

  15. #90
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Great take elpimpo. The relatives of the slain Iraqis agree with you, and are asking for blood for blood. $2500/victim was not enough to make this problem go away...

    A lawyer who had several relatives among 24 Iraqis allegedly slain by U.S. Marines last fall and is representing kin of other victims complained in a videotape Saturday that American compensation paid to the families was inadequate.
    Khaled Salem Rsayef also said U.S. officers accused him and other relatives of lying when they recounted the shootings in their first meeting with the military after the Nov. 19 deaths in the western town of Haditha. He did not say when they met.

    In interviews taped Friday by an AP Television News cameraman, 9-year-old survivor Iman Walid Abdul-Hameed demanded that those responsible be executed. "Because they hurt us, we want the Americans to be executed," Iman said, wearing a violet-colored striped shirt, matching pants and headband while sitting on a couch at a relative's home. She was reluctant to speak at first, but was eventually persuaded by her relatives.

    The girl lost her parents, a brother, grandparents and two uncles in the incident. Another brother, Abdul-Rahman, who was 6 at the time, and a sister, Asia, who was 5 months old, survived. Iman and Abdul-Rahman were slightly
    injured. "We did not do anything to them," Iman said of the Marines who allegedly killed unarmed civilians after becoming enraged when a comrade died in a roadside bombing.

    Despite blaming insurgents for the killings, the U.S. military gave the families $2,500 for each person killed in the incident about a month later, except for four brothers, all of fighting age, he said. "When I received the compensation money, I found out that it was $2,500 for each victim," Rsayef said. "I told them that it's a small sum that does not match the magnitude of the disaster." He noted that Libya's government paid millions of dollars in compensation to the families of the Lockerbie airline bombing victims. "Is American blood worth more than Iraqi blood?" he asked.
    AP

  16. #91
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    Great take elpimpo. The relatives of the slain Iraqis agree with you, and are asking for blood for blood. $2500/victim was not enough to make this problem go away...

    A lawyer who had several relatives among 24 Iraqis allegedly slain by U.S. Marines last fall and is representing kin of other victims complained in a videotape Saturday that American compensation paid to the families was inadequate.
    Khaled Salem Rsayef also said U.S. officers accused him and other relatives of lying when they recounted the shootings in their first meeting with the military after the Nov. 19 deaths in the western town of Haditha. He did not say when they met.

    In interviews taped Friday by an AP Television News cameraman, 9-year-old survivor Iman Walid Abdul-Hameed demanded that those responsible be executed. "Because they hurt us, we want the Americans to be executed," Iman said, wearing a violet-colored striped shirt, matching pants and headband while sitting on a couch at a relative's home. She was reluctant to speak at first, but was eventually persuaded by her relatives.

    The girl lost her parents, a brother, grandparents and two uncles in the incident. Another brother, Abdul-Rahman, who was 6 at the time, and a sister, Asia, who was 5 months old, survived. Iman and Abdul-Rahman were slightly
    injured. "We did not do anything to them," Iman said of the Marines who allegedly killed unarmed civilians after becoming enraged when a comrade died in a roadside bombing.

    Despite blaming insurgents for the killings, the U.S. military gave the families $2,500 for each person killed in the incident about a month later, except for four brothers, all of fighting age, he said. "When I received the compensation money, I found out that it was $2,500 for each victim," Rsayef said. "I told them that it's a small sum that does not match the magnitude of the disaster." He noted that Libya's government paid millions of dollars in compensation to the families of the Lockerbie airline bombing victims. "Is American blood worth more than Iraqi blood?" he asked.
    AP
    WTF!! them! this isn't supposed to be about money! sounds to me like they are more interested in getting paid than seeing justice be done.

  17. #92
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    Here's a good take from Jack Kelly, columnist for my Toledo Blade and the Pittsburg Gazette.

    Smearing our troops


    JESSE Macbeth, a self-styled "special forces ranger," regaled liberal moonbat audiences with tales of the atrocities he committed in Iraq:

    "Fallujah is where we slaughtered people in mosques," he said. "We would dig holes and leave mass graves of children, women, and old men."

    Unfortunately for Mr. Macbeth, he made a video that was seen by actual veterans. In it, he is wearing his beret improperly ("like a pastry chef," said an Army spokesman). He's wearing a Ranger beret, but it has a Special Forces flash. The sleeves on his military jacket are rolled up the way the Marines do it; not the Army.

    In short, Mr. Macbeth was a fraud so obvious even the moonbats should have seen through him, but they didn't because they wanted so badly to believe the terrible things he was saying about U.S. forces in Iraq.

    In every war America has ever fought, a few soldiers have committed war crimes. In no war has their behavior been representative of our soldiers as a whole, or been sanctioned at high levels. But the moonbats think smearing our servicemen and women discredits the war effort.

    To his everlasting shame, Rep. John Murtha, a Democrat from Pennsylvania and a retired Marine reserve colonel, is playing to the same crowd. He's accused Marines of having committed "cold-blooded murder," and their superiors of covering it up.

    "It goes right up the chain of command right up to General [Peter] Pace [chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff]," Mr. Murtha said on ABC's This Week program last Sunday.

    Something horrible did happen in Haditha on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005. A powerful roadside bomb destroyed a Marine Humvee, killing Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, and injuring two other Marines.

    The incident report filed by Corporal Terrazas' unit said the bomb was accompanied by small arms fire, which the Marines returned, killing eight insurgents and wounding another. The report said 15 Iraqi civilians were killed in the blast.

    That wasn't true. Autopsies indicated the 15 civilians - four of them women and four of them children - had all suffered gunshot wounds.

    The civilians were killed inside two houses near the blast site. An Iraqi journalism student videotaped the bodies in the morgue and the scene in the two houses. It was shown to reporters for Time in Baghdad.

    Time gave a copy of the tape to a military spokesman in January, triggering an investigation which is now nearing completion.

    Residents of Haditha told Time they were pleased with the thoroughness of the investigation.

    "They asked detailed questions, examined each bullet hole and burn mark," a relative of the victims told Time's Aparism Ghosh. "It was a very professional investigation."

    Criminal charges are likely to be filed against the 13 Marines in the squad involved in the shootings.

    But in our system, it is customary to hear the evidence before rendering a verdict. The Marines have yet to be charged, let alone convicted.

    "Cold-blooded" implies emotionless premeditation. From what little we know of the case, it seems the Marines were guilty of a hot-blooded over-reaction. Perhaps some Marines committed murder. But perhaps it was manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.

    And maybe they're innocent. Haditha's a hotbed of insurgent activity. Perhaps the Marines were receiving fire from the houses, as they claimed.

    If the Marines under su ion are found guilty of murder or manslaughter, they should be punished severely. But they deserve the presumption of innocence until then.

    Mr. Murtha's accusation of a cover-up clearly is false. The Marines under investigation apparently lied in their report of the incident, but as soon as their superiors were made aware of the discrepancies in their story, they ordered an investigation which the Iraqis say is thorough, and which is about to result in criminal charges.

    But if there is no cover up, it is harder to turn the incident into a broad indictment of U.S. policy in Iraq.

    News media that haven't reported much on the heroism of U.S. troops in Iraq have been playing this incident up, as they did the appalling conduct of a few guards at Abu Ghraib prison.

    The incident routinely is described as a "massacre," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace. <what a surprise>!!
    Smearing our troops gives our enemies a propaganda victory. But whatever happened at Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, has nothing to do with the wisdom or justness (or the lack of it) of the war in Iraq.

    Jack Kelly is a member of The Blade’s national bureau. http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll...3/-1/COLUMNIST

  18. #93
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    The Toledo-Blade rocks!! Good article.

    But Murtha has my respect even though I don't agree with everything he says.

  19. #94
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Murtha is a politician, just like McCain. Both have lost any credibility with me.
    They served, have been rewarded, but to start some of the crap they have,
    forget it.

  20. #95
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I'd follow either man into battle any day of the week.

  21. #96
    chode bloadin' chode_regulator's Avatar
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    If the Marines under su ion are found guilty of murder or manslaughter, they should be punished severely. But they deserve the presumption of innocence until then.
    well said. everyone here is quick to judge these marines off of what a few foreigners have said. regardless of any evidence they have against these marines, even the most obscene crimes commited in the u.s. the criminal gets the tag line "alleged" before a description, yet these marines are automatically guilty.



    News media that haven't reported much on the heroism of U.S. troops in Iraq have been playing this incident up, as they did the appalling conduct of a few guards at Abu Ghraib prison.
    again true. good news doesnt sell. only negative.

    The incident routinely is described as a "massacre," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace. <what a surprise>!!
    again, the media picks and chooses what it wants to reports on.


    its stupid to compare to a normal crime because ITS NOT A NORMAL CRIME!! its the slaughter of 24 innocent civilians! why is it so hard for you to understand that? or is it that you don't want to understand?
    so punishment should be worse bc it wasnt civilians killing civilians? it wasnt gang related? or a car bombing? or someone randomly shooting people at gas stations? or kids walking into school loaded with guns? those are somehow better? or they should automatically be guilty bc of the same reasons?

  22. #97
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    so punishment should be worse bc it wasnt civilians killing civilians? it wasnt gang related? or a car bombing? or someone randomly shooting people at gas stations? or kids walking into school loaded with guns? those are somehow better? or they should automatically be guilty bc of the same reasons?
    WTF?? who said anything about punishment being more severe? you're the one downplaying the whole thing like it was no big deal 24 civilans were murdered. All those crimes you are talking about are NOT normal crimes, and I NEVER said one was worse than another. If a guy kills 24 people in the US in cold blood, what do you think the sentence would be?? I'm advocating the same punishment they would get if they did this in the States and the victims were American, but seems like you think its a lesser crime because they are American soldiers and the victims are foreigners.

  23. #98
    chode bloadin' chode_regulator's Avatar
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    ill be thinking of your semantics and idiosyncracies manumania as im haning off the tail gun out the ramp


    btw im not downplaying it, just saying everyone here has already judged, convicted and sentenced these marines. calling for blood barely even a couple weeks after this story really blew up. its ridiculous.
    im not saying that if they killedthose peple its not wrong, just wondering why is it more wrong?
    Last edited by chode_regulator; 06-06-2006 at 04:56 AM.

  24. #99
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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    ill be thinking of your semantics and idiosyncracies manumania as im haning off the tail gun out the ramp


    btw im not downplaying it, just saying everyone here has already judged, convicted and sentenced these marines. calling for blood barely even a couple weeks after this story really blew up. its ridiculous.
    im not saying that if they killedthose peple its not wrong, just wondering why is it more wrong?
    Double standard? yes, but terrorist didn't swear to follow the laws, soldiers have. It similar when a policeman breaks the law - it's much worse if the ones that should be protecting and enforcing the laws are the ones that break them.

    we already know terrorist are s bags, i would like to think US army is better than that.

  25. #100
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    WTF?? who said anything about punishment being more severe? you're the one downplaying the whole thing like it was no big deal 24 civilans were murdered. All those crimes you are talking about are NOT normal crimes, and I NEVER said one was worse than another. If a guy kills 24 people in the US in cold blood, what do you think the sentence would be?? I'm advocating the same punishment they would get if they did this in the States and the victims were American, but seems like you think its a lesser crime because they are American soldiers and the victims are foreigners.

    How many times can you execute a guilty person? Once should do it. Oh,
    I guess you could do like them, after hanging, shooting or whatever, drag
    them through the street, burn the corpse and display it from a bridge. For
    what purpose I don't know. But people who say punishment should be more
    severe. Dead is dead.

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