Who Believes the Bible Is Literally True?

[turambar85]

Joch...being forced to believe something is more likely to cause large factions and springs of dissent than something people ask to believe freely. That is a bogus argument. The billions who believe the koran truly believe it...fear of something can not make you believe it...at best it can make you pretend to believe. Marijuana is illegal...but I believe it is ok, but pretend I do not. lol. Also...christian children are indoctrinated just the same from birth. Many are baptised or whatever before they can speak. They are made members of the church before they can wipe their own asses. And they are taught that the world revolves around the Bible, and to not believe sends you to ....thats far worse than saying if you dont believe you will be executed. You can do better than that...

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]

Joch...being forced to believe something is more likely to cause large factions and springs of dissent than something people ask to believe freely. That is a bogus argument. The billions who believe the koran truly believe it...fear of something can not make you believe it...at best it can make you pretend to believe. Also...christian children are indoctrinated just the same from birth.

Where talking about brainwashing at an early age so where is the freedom to believe? Fear is a great motivator and for that small number of Muslims who are able to free their minds from the forceable indocrination they received from birth they then have the option of "pretending" or facing the same fate as Salmon Rusdie, i.e., a fatwa calling for their assassination.
It's at best naive to believe that the Christian faith imposes this type of control over those they wish to be disciples of Christ.

Many are baptised or whatever before they can speak.

Sprinkling water on a newborn is not a form of brainwashing.

They are made members of the church before they can wipe their own asses.

My Church (AG) doesn't allow membership until you're 18 after voluntarily going through classes that present the doctrines adhered to.

And they are taught that the world revolves around the Bible, and to not believe sends you to ....thats far worse than saying if you dont believe you will be executed.

Brainwashing and threats are worse than the freedom to believe and come to your own conclusions? You may feel that way but I don't believe a majority of people would agree with that notion.

You can do better than that

My belief is that you can too.

[turambar85]

...not even worth the time it takes to quote you and respond. It seems likely that you are so well versed in the dogma of your religion, by your own choice, of course, that you wouldn't benefit from a reply anyway.

[jochhejaam]

...not even worth the time it takes to quote you and respond. It seems likely that you are so well versed in the dogma of your religion, by your own choice, of course, that you wouldn't benefit from a reply anyway.

To paraphrase what you just said; "I'm in way over my head and I am unable to formulate an intelligent response".

[turambar85]

An intelligent response can only be made to an intelligent statement. You said nothing or relevance to refute anything which I had said, so to say anything further would have simply been overkill.

[jochhejaam]

An intelligent response can only be made to an intelligent statement. You said nothing or relevance to refute anything which I had said, so to say anything further would have simply been overkill.

Intelligence can be conveyed at any time if you're qualified to reply intelligently. On the other hand ignorant and dismissive responses can be made to factual statements as was the case with your recent reply.

Speaking of a lack of intelligence in a post, this post brings to two the total number of replies you have submitted since noting that my post was "not even worth the time it takes to quote you and respond".

Keep contradicting yourself by responding and I'll keep track of your total number of contradictions for you.

Two and counting...

[Extra Stout]

Joch...being forced to believe something is more likely to cause large factions and springs of dissent than something people ask to believe freely.

In a free society. That does not apply to societies where dissent is crushed systematically.

The billions who believe the koran truly believe it...fear of something can not make you believe it...at best it can make you pretend to believe.

Because of course you surveyed the 1+ billion Muslims and gauged the authenticity of their faith.

Also...christian children are indoctrinated just the same from birth. Many are baptised or whatever before they can speak. They are made members of the church before they can wipe their own asses. And they are taught that the world revolves around the Bible, and to not believe sends you to ....thats far worse than saying if you dont believe you will be executed. You can do better than that...

I think you've heavily misrepresented the presentation of the gospel to young people within the church. I don't think you know much at all about the church and probably should refrain from making arguments therein without educating yourself a good bit more.

[scott]

In a free society. That does not apply to societies where dissent is crushed systematically.

You mean like ones where I can post statistical evidence than believers in Jesus Christ are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists are accused of being immoral heathens who are out to distroy the faith of Christians? Or ones where no non-Christian could ever hold a significant political office because they would be accused of being a godless heathen? Make no mistake about it, to a lot of people in America (Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists alike), Religious Freedom only applies to people of their own faith.

Because of course you surveyed the 1+ billion Muslims and gauged the authenticity of their faith.

Did smeagol survey the billions of Christians he refered to to gauge the authenticity of their faith?

I think you've heavily misrepresented the presentation of the gospel to young people within the church. I don't think you know much at all about the church and probably should refrain from making arguments therein without educating yourself a good bit more.

Luckily, I am rather "educated" in the Church (at least the Catholic Church) and I must say that telling a bunch of 7 year olds that the failure to believe in Jesus Christ as savior will result in eternal damnation is fairly tantamount to indoctrination. Call me crazy.

[TreeWhisperer]

My God, perhaps you two should pray for wisdom. 1st, Joch, I said I wouldn't waste time responding to what you had said, meaning that what you said could only be answered in one sentence or 20 pages. It wasn't worth the time to get in depth. 2nd, extrastout, you have x-rays disease which causes you to make stupid assumptions. I have spent my entire life,from birth, in church, and my grandfather is a pastor. I have been in or around the church my entire life, so ask before making any other assumptions.

Now, I look forward to getting an intelligent, factually based reply which is not based on assumptions about myself, or under-informed "opinions" such as that Muslims do not believe their religion, but are forced under pain of death to pretend that they do. Well, I guess they are so afraid of being killed that they willingly die instead. Rational explanation.

I will keep track of every post you make in which you fail to make a logical point. I think youre at 3 and counting.

[turambar85]

That last post was meant to be my me, and not tree. I forgot to sign out of her account.

[nbascribe]

Now this is exactly what Ron Howard wants about the Davinci Code: TRUE DEBATE AMONGST A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AGREE ON !! LOL

[xrayzebra]

That last post was meant to be my me, and not tree. I forgot to sign out of her account.

You would think that people of your intelligence would know how to sign
in and out of forums. A little clue, look in upper right hand corner of the
page when posting and it shows who you are.

The teach that at the computer lab at the old folks home.

[Extra Stout]

You mean like ones where I can post statistical evidence than believers in Jesus Christ are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists are accused of being immoral heathens who are out to distroy the faith of Christians? Or ones where no non-Christian could ever hold a significant political office because they would be accused of being a godless heathen? Make no mistake about it, to a lot of people in America (Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists alike), Religious Freedom only applies to people of their own faith.

In America, if one speaks out against Christianity, some people might call you names and hurt your feelings. In Afghanistan, if one speaks out against Islam, or converts to Christianity they get a death sentence which only gets vacated due to intense international pressure, after which they need asylum to another country in order to avoid being lynched.

Clearly, that is exactly the same.

Did smeagol survey the billions of Christians he refered to to gauge the authenticity of their faith?

Was I arguing on his behalf?

Luckily, I am rather "educated" in the Church (at least the Catholic Church) and I must say that telling a bunch of 7 year olds that the failure to believe in Jesus Christ as savior will result in eternal damnation is fairly tantamount to indoctrination. Call me crazy.

And yet children leave the faith of their parents all the time. In a Muslim country, this results is disownment, and as discussed above, exile or death. In the U.S., Momma maybe gets disappointed in you. How oppressive.

[scott]

In America, if one speaks out against Christianity, some people might call you names and hurt your feelings. In Afghanistan, if one speaks out against Islam, or converts to Christianity they get a death sentence which only gets vacated due to intense international pressure, after which they need asylum to another country in order to avoid being lynched.

Clearly, that is exactly the same.

And clearly, Afghanistan is represen ive of the entire Muslim world.

Was I arguing on his behalf?

You sure did find it necessary to respond to a statement that was spurred by one of smeagol's comments, so you tell me.

But whatever - the typical Christian interventionist arguement has already been played:

"Christianity prevents all crime. What about those Christians in jail? Not really Christians.

Christians are Christians by choice. Every follower of every other religion is so by force.

The lack of religion in school is the biggest problem facing America, so long as that religion is called Christianity."

The majority of Christians who aren't fixated on indoctrinating the world with their beliefs are done a major disservice by the ones who use logically obsurd and blatantly hypocritical arguements to further their positions. But the bible says it, and people believe in the bible, so it must be true.

[Extra Stout]

My God, perhaps you two should pray for wisdom. 1st, Joch, I said I wouldn't waste time responding to what you had said, meaning that what you said could only be answered in one sentence or 20 pages. It wasn't worth the time to get in depth. 2nd, extrastout, you have x-rays disease which causes you to make stupid assumptions. I have spent my entire life,from birth, in church, and my grandfather is a pastor. I have been in or around the church my entire life, so ask before making any other assumptions.

Neither you nor joch have any idea how many professing Christians or Muslims truly believe in their faith. Maybe it's more in one than in the other. Maybe it's not. Joch argues without grounds that Christians follow freely while Muslims are coerced. You argue that the billions (sic) of Muslims are legitimately faithful. How do either of you know that?

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity where children get full membership regardless of whether they want it. I know of ones where young people have to profess their faith of their own volition (you could argue whether an 8-year-old really understands what he is professing; nevertheless, it is still voluntary). I know of ones where young people must go through confirmation so that they have an understanding of the faith they would be professing. Where is this church to which you refer that is conscripting child members?

Your notion that the psychological pressure of the teaching about somehow is more manipulative than the sharp point of a knife in keeping followers in line does not ring true. People leave the faith of their fathers in this country all the time. The consequences of that here are mild. There are some heavily Roman Catholic countries where the ostracism is worse. But in Muslim countries, families disown apostates, and apostates are subject to death.

One key difference between Islam and Christianity is how they treat the secular world. The Christian Bible makes no claims upon how government or the market or society is to be run, save for the ethical requirements of believers within those venues. (Of course, this differs from the stentorian dictates laid out for Israel in Old Testament. But we aren't professing tabernacle Judaism here). The Koran, on the other hand, lays out exactly how the government, economy, society, and everyday life are supposed to be conducted. So many of the Muslim lands are run as theocracies under Shari'a law. There is no Christian equivalent to Shari'a law.

I would suggest that it is significantly more difficult, having been born into a society where every aspect of life falls under the au es of the dominant religion, to abandon that religion, even if one's doubts about that faith might make practice thereof merely perfunctory, than it is to abandon a majority religion in a secular society with diverse cultural influences.

[scott]

Neither you nor joch have any idea how many professing Christians or Muslims truly believe in their faith. Maybe it's more in one than in the other. Maybe it's not. Joch argues without grounds that Christians follow freely while Muslims are coerced. You argue that the billions (sic) of Muslims are legitimately faithful. How do either of you know that?

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity where children get full membership regardless of whether they want it. I know of ones where young people have to profess their faith of their own volition (you could argue whether an 8-year-old really understands what he is professing; nevertheless, it is still voluntary). I know of ones where young people must go through confirmation so that they have an understanding of the faith they would be professing. Where is this church to which you refer that is conscripting child members?

Your notion that the psychological pressure of the teaching about somehow is more manipulative than the sharp point of a knife in keeping followers in line does not ring true. People leave the faith of their fathers in this country all the time. The consequences of that here are mild. There are some heavily Roman Catholic countries where the ostracism is worse. But in Muslim countries, families disown apostates, and apostates are subject to death.

One key difference between Islam and Christianity is how they treat the secular world. The Christian Bible makes no claims upon how government or the market or society is to be run, save for the ethical requirements of believers within those venues. (Of course, this differs from the stentorian dictates laid out for Israel in Old Testament. But we aren't professing tabernacle Judaism here). The Koran, on the other hand, lays out exactly how the government, economy, society, and everyday life are supposed to be conducted. So many of the Muslim lands are run as theocracies under Shari'a law. There is no Christian equivalent to Shari'a law.

I would suggest that it is significantly more difficult, having been born into a society where every aspect of life falls under the au es of the dominant religion, to abandon that religion, even if one's doubts about that faith might make practice thereof merely perfunctory, than it is to abandon a majority religion in a secular society with diverse cultural influences.

Nice explanation.

The problem I see with a minority of Christians is that they would like to see the US as a Christian nation with Christianity as the national religion. Yet they decry (rightfully so) Muslim nations on the other side of the world. Their rational is "but Christianity is a just religion" as if that mattered at all.

[King]

This post is too far along for me to get involved in it, but I just wanted to make one point. When people talk about the burning bush or snake, or any other seemingly illogical occurences, it doesn't discount it. Because the God that we choose to believe in isn't of a human form. The things that we believe He can and has done, aren't logical by human standards.

He wasn't just a man. It wasn't just any guy out there doing those things. That's why it's explainable. If you're trying to put human standards on Him, you won't believe any of it to be true. But, I don't think any of us ever believed him to be just a street magician of sorts.

Like Joe said a few pages back, my faith is rock solid. You can choose to believe or to not believe what you want to.

[turambar85]

No, I was actually only trying to prove the point that we can no more accurately say that Christians honestly believe than that Muslims honestly believe, which Joch had argued against earlier.

[Extra Stout]

Nice explanation.

The problem I see with a minority of Christians is that they would like to see the US as a Christian nation with Christianity as the national religion. Yet they decry (rightfully so) Muslim nations on the other side of the world. Their rational is "but Christianity is a just religion" as if that mattered at all.

Are you referring to Dominionists? If so, that is not such a sizable minority. But they need to be kept an eye on (WallBuilders, asf), as they are anathemic to our tradition of liberal democracy.

[smeagol]

I clearly stated that I believed everything in the bible that is not supported by solid evidence is fiction.

No you didn't. You said:

I think people should interpret literally only the parts of the bible that are supported by empirical data, otherwise just take it for what it is, a remarkable work of fiction.

which is basically doing what extatic, scott, OG and other atheists/agnostics accuse religious people of doing: shoving down their (God-less) belief system down everybody's throught, but basically applying it to Christianity's most sacred Book.

[nbascribe]

Dayum this would make a good talk show on somebody's religious programming. Call Billy Graham. Summon Rod Parsley. Dog gone it this is what REAL debate is all about!!!

Now with that said my only complaint is that man has a tendancy to use theocracy as a means of justifying what they may have read in the bible. We try to govern by that notion. Theology is the study of a religion. Whatever your beliefs are - Orthodox Greek, Muslim, Hassidic Jew, Messonic Jew, Southern Baptist, Episcopolian, etc., it is your job as a believer in your faith to study to show yourself approved.

What is truly amazing though is that non-believers of any faith fail to realize that the laws of the land are based off of some type of belief. Whether you pick up the Quoran, the Bible or ancient scrolls, the laws we live by have religious background and foundation. So all of had to believe in something or SOMEONE of a higher plane to be able to live under the laws we have now.

Religion and society are very much interwoven into us whether we believe it or even like it.

[xrayzebra]

^^Now you have gone done and done it. You will pay.

[nbascribe]

Feigning ignorance...

I have no idea what u talking bout...I was reading Dr. Seus!!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No you didn't. You said:



which is basically doing what extatic, scott, OG and other atheists/agnostics accuse religious people of doing: shoving down their (God-less) belief system down everybody's throught, but basically applying it to Christianity's most sacred Book.

Look, the thread asked a simple question and I answered with MY OPINION, which I clearly stated was MY OPINION! Now GET THE OVER YOURSELF! I'm not trying to shove anything down anybody's throat. You don't like that I think the bible is bull ?? WELL LIVE WITH IT!, because I do!

I still dare you to tell me what exactly is false with this statement?

I think people should interpret literally only the parts of the bible that are supported by empirical data, otherwise just take it for what it is, a remarkable work of fiction.

because all you said before was "I can't 'cause you have no faith" or in other words, "you're right, but I need a cop out"

[MannyIsGod]

The world will be a better place when people learn to keep their religous beliefs to themselves.