Assume Duncan Moves to Center

[gameFACE]

I'm not asking for small ball. Read my posts. I'd love to get a real strong and mobile PF. The problem, as you've noted, isn't that teams have small players--many of the new breed are as big as the old style center--as much as it is mobility and athleticism on the defensive end.

I read all your posts understanding that you aren't advocating small ball. I agree with your idea of looking for a PF. It is what will ultimately would happen if Mahinmi came. And yes, Tim's le should be "center". The PF position has a lot of glamour and prestige attached to it but so ing what. Tim is still a major force but as a center as this past playoffs proved. Make the move now. Who cares about the all star game. Didn't Tim come off the bench this past year anyway as a PF?

I'm not sure yet who the magic 4 is that would play alongside Tim. But I would try and get a guy like Pollard as a backup center.

[polandprzem]

You are saying that the spurs needs an athletic PF, and that's because Tim could not handle the rest PF of this leauge.
But as you look at those atletic fours they do not have a great permieter play so Tim will not be forced to play outside. We do not have that many Dirk Nowitzkis with a great JS.

[Borosai]

At this point, we are looking at:

Duncan - Oberto
Javtokas - Bonner - Horry
Bowen - Williams
Ginobili - Finley - Barry
Parker - Udrih

Plus any trades/signings. Am I missing someone? The Spurs definitely need to pick up a few more people, but the lineup is pretty good. I feel Javtokas is athletic enough to guard most of the PF out there, including Dirk...especially if he gets physical with him. Age is still a problem, but I have no problem with this lineup. Oberto gets more mins to see what he can do, Horry gets more rest (is that possible?) and Udrih gets more mins and a legit shot. Once they add a couple more guys, everyone will calm down.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think you can use that blueprint against the Mavs. The Spurs took the first two games in Phoenix without Joe Johnson. The series was pretty much over at that point.

With Joe Johnson, the Spurs were 2-1 letting Amare get his. The '06 Mavs also had a much deeper team than '05 Suns.

It's not a blueprint to use against the mavs, it's the blueprint to use against the Spurs. 2005 Amare dominates, Suns lose. 2006 Duncan dominates, Spurs lose.

[Bruno]

You are saying that the spurs needs an athletic PF, and that's because Tim could not handle the rest PF of this leauge.
But as you look at those atletic fours they do not have a great permieter play so Tim will not be forced to play outside. We do not have that many Dirk Nowitzkis with a great JS.

It's not only playing outside, it's staying out of foul troubles : we need to keeep Duncan on the court.

Just take the Clippers as an example : will you put Duncan on Brand or on Kaman ?
I'll put him on Kaman, he will be in foul troubles if he defends Brand.

Just look at all the western conference teams : Duncan will defend the opposite C against most teams.
They guy who plays with Duncan should be able to defend PFs (like Odom, Dirk, Brand...) and Yao : I rather have a PF to do that than a C.

[polandprzem]

It's not only playing outside, it's staying out of foul troubles : we need to keeep Duncan on the court.

Just take the Clippers as an example : will you put Duncan on Brand or on Kaman ?
I'll put him on Kaman, he will be in foul troubles if he defends Brand.

Just look at all the western conference teams : Duncan will defend the opposite C against most teams.
They guy who plays with Duncan should be able to defend PFs (like Odom, Dirk, Brand...) and Yao : I rather have a PF to do that than a C.

Okay but is haslem or Shaq the athletic PF?

To me it's too much schematic.
Maybe it is that I just don't want to move Duncan from the Forward position, I don't know. But having Duncan at Center the spurs will be forced to play more transition game and I prefer the half court offense just because it is more effective from the devensive poitn of view esp. when the spurs do not have young gunner like the suns for excample.
And the athletic PF - I don't see nobody who could fill that position for the spurs.
Ppl talking about Mahimini but come on plus he will not be able.
damn I hope Javtokas will translate better then I hope (hehe - whta a sentence)

[Bruno]

Okay but is haslem or Shaq the athletic PF?

Did I say athltetic PF ?
I've just said starting PF.
A true PF will be a good solution even if he isn't very athletic.

To me it's too much schematic.

Sometimes simple explications are the better.

Maybe it is that I just don't want to move Duncan from the Forward position, I don't know. But having Duncan at Center the spurs will be forced to play more transition game and I prefer the half court offense just because it is more effective from the devensive poitn of view esp. when the spurs do not have young gunner like the suns for excample.

Having Duncan at center doesn't really change our offense.
Rasho and Nazr were our 5th scoring option, I don't see how their loss will change something to our offense.

And the athletic PF - I don't see nobody who could fill that position for the spurs.
Ppl talking about Mahimini but come on plus he will not be able.
damn I hope Javtokas will translate better then I hope (hehe - whta a sentence)

We haven't any player (a C or a PF) able to start with Duncan in our roster today.
Finding a PF via trade or Fa won't be harder than finding a C, Spurs have the choice to decide where Duncan will play next year.

[polandprzem]

We haven't any player (a C or a PF) able to start with Duncan in our roster today.
Finding a PF via trade or Fa won't be harder than finding a C, Spurs have the choice to decide where Duncan will play next year.

I think they are looking at the market and can see the posibilieties. I don't think they main concern is where we want Duncan to play (position). They will take the best possible player.

If they don't need an athletic PF, so they need someone who can give 6 fouls? Because you said that the main prpoblem will be (for Duncan) to stay infront of the ppl and not getting fouledout.
Is it?

Cause any other big man (center) can also give 6 fouls but maybe will be the defensive force inside the box. Shotblocking ability and stuff.

If that's a big difference? Having a PF or a center in a frontcourt with Timmy?

What I'm thinking about having TD @ the C position is taht we (the spurs) are adopting to the NBA new style of play. Small ball can be efective, so either we need a athletic PF or a center called Razr.
Or we might find a center playing like Jermaine or Dwight or Amare or Ben

[Bruno]

If they don't need an athletic PF, so they need someone who can give 6 fouls? Because you said that the main prpoblem will be (for Duncan) to stay infront of the ppl and not getting fouledout.
Is it?

Cause any other big man (center) can also give 6 fouls but maybe will be the defensive force inside the box. Shotblocking ability and stuff.

If that's a big difference? Having a PF or a center in a frontcourt with Timmy?

The difference is that the center who plays with Duncan won't be able to defend the opposite PF. The shotblocking ability is useless if the player isn't able to play decent man to man defense.
The difference between Nazr/Rasho and Haslem is that Haslem was able to defend on Dirk.

What I'm thinking about having TD @ the C position is taht we (the spurs) are adopting to the NBA new style of play. Small ball can be efective, so either we need a athletic PF or a center called Razr.
Or we might find a center playing like Jermaine or Dwight or Amare or Ben

Duncan at center isn't smallball : Finley at PF was smallball.
And I don't know what you want to say by saying an athletic PF because Haslem is an athletic player.

[polandprzem]

The difference is that the center who plays with Duncan won't be able to defend the opposite PF. The shotblocking ability is useless if the player isn't able to play decent man to man defense.
The difference between Nazr/Rasho and Haslem is that Haslem was able to defend on Dirk.

So how much less "can't guard other Pf's" is Shaq compering to Duncan?

The only reason you want Duncan to play at center is a unability to defend vs the Pf's either it will be the foul trouble or letting the other PF to slash into the basket or shoot from outside. If the spurs wil get a center than you have a help defense.
To me having a 6'11" Duncan and a (probably) 6'10" PF is not what I want to see in the lineup in the defense.
You probably will say : why? you have not taht much of seven footer who can do the demage.
I say: why don't we just "scare" them off the basket and let the shoot?

Well realy I dn't care if it's gonna to be a PF or a center he must to be a good defender. It might be your version of a "random selected Power Forward" or my version of a "plastic (athletic) center".

You think right now Tim can't guard the other PF. okay. I think that he can guard most of the PF's in the leauge - still.

Duncan at center isn't smallball : Finley at PF was smallball.
And I don't know what you want to say by saying an athletic PF because Haslem is an athletic player.

Well small ball because of less halfcourt play. They will have to run more IMO.

[Bruno]

So how much less "can't guard other Pf's" is Shaq compering to Duncan?

Have you ever seen Shaq at PF ?

To me having a 6'11" Duncan and a (probably) 6'10" PF is not what I want to see in the lineup in the defense.
You probably will say : why? you have not taht much of seven footer who can do the demage.
I say: why don't we just "scare" them off the basket and let the shoot?

You're right team defense is better with Duncan + center but man to man defense is better with Duncan + PF.
All in all, Duncan + PF is the better solution to me.

I think that he can guard most of the PF's in the leauge - still.

I don't care if Duncan can guard 20 of the 30 starting PFs.
The thing to look is : "is Duncan able to defend against PF from teams we will meet in playoffs ?"
Just look at the other 7 western playoff teams of this year : Duncan at PF is a bad fit against 4 of them : Dallas, Clippers, Lakers and Phoenix.

Well small ball because of less halfcourt play. They will have to run more IMO.

With Duncan at center, we will just be able to run more. Being able to run doesn't mean that we will run more.

[polandprzem]

Have you ever seen Shaq at PF ?

Nope, but he is worst in defending centers then Tim defending PF's

You're right team defense is better with Duncan + center but man to man defense is better with Duncan + PF.
All in all, Duncan + PF is the better solution to me.

Okay. Everything is effective when leads to success.

I don't care if Duncan can guard 20 of the 30 starting PFs.
The thing to look is : "is Duncan able to defend against PF from teams we will meet in playoffs ?"
Just look at the other 7 western playoff teams of this year : Duncan at PF is a bad fit against 4 of them : Dallas, Clippers, Lakers and Phoenix.

Yup, but still...are we talking about the 35+ PF ? In the whole season? Cause still the spurs can be effective with a center playing like 20-30 minutes and having a PF of the bench. Just like the spurs did with Horry the previous 2 years (with one successfull).
[Are we talking hypotetical or are we talking about PF which the spurs may get?]
I do agree that we have to match those teams athleticism, but still - it depends what kind of center the spurs can get? A Wilcox kind of guy or a Rasho, J.James kind og guy?

With Duncan at center, we will just be able to run more. Being able to run doesn't mean that we will run more.

Yup that will give some options.
But sometimes you can run with centers and sometimes you can't run with Pf's.

How much does the NBA has changed? Years and years ago nobody would force centers to run.

[furry_spurry]

Duncan at center isn't small ball at all.
Duncan at center with a legit PF (and not Finley) is way better than Duncan at PF with a legit center.

Bingo!

Rasho spent a great deal of this past season guarding PFs The Spurs never use Duncan to guard the primary scoring big man on the opposing team. Nowdays that guy is often the PF and we would put Rasho on him and Duncan on the C anyway-- ex. Bosh, Howard, KG,... Duncan covered many a center this season. I never quite understood why people were so surprised to see him on Diop/Dampier in the play-offs. The problem was that we coudln't switch Rasho over onto their PF- Dirk- and Horry who we would have hoped could have done that just didn't work out well or get all that much of a chance.

[wildbill2u]

Most good teams in the league now have two good forwards and so-so centers because there aren't many great centers around.

You want proof: 1.We were able to get rid of Rasho and NAZR and we KNOW they aren't great.
2. Duncan at center was able to dominate the Mavs center, getting them in foul trouble and scoring at will. But they had some pretty good forwards and he didn't have enough help at those positions.
3. Who are the other premier centers? Pretty short list IMO. Shaq and Brand. Wallace might have a year or so left.