Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 101
  1. #76
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    13,614
    Good Post ES.

    Nations do things because it is in their interest to do them. Nations can't be "friends" with other nations and how the people of other nations view each other is due largely to the views that are put forth by those they respect.

    People hate the U.S. and people love the U.S. but don't think that the U.S. or, even those countries called home by these U.S.-haters and U.S.-lovers care one whit about their nations popularity in the world

    The only thing a nation should care about is whether or not its interests are being served, protected, and maintained. To the extent these interests intersect with those of other countries, we form alliances and treaties and partnerships. To the extent these interests differ with other countries' interests we disagree, we use diplomacy to change their policy, or we go to war.

    Geopolitics isn't a popularity contest.
    Would you not agree that by using its power to serve its own interests too narrowly, the United States works against those same interests by compromising the very power it holds to pursue them, since part of its power is derived from the consent of other nations to wield it?

  2. #77
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Post Count
    32,408
    History shows that nations will gang together to tie down great powers, lest they drowned out by the behemoth.

    For decades, the United States had been the exception to that rule. Part of that was because of the Cold War. Part of it was because the U.S. went out of its way to show the rest of the world it had nothing to fear.

    All past administrations, Republican and Democrat, have been deferential, almost to the point of excess, to the weaker powers. This administration was the first to eschew all that and say right up front that American power should be used just to serve American interests.

    Much of the world, including even Old Europe, for all their smugness and ing and moaning, ultimately looked to the United States to be the vanguard of Western ideals, to be a moral leader not because it was easy or efficacious, but because the American people believed they were exceptional, and strove to set a higher standard.

    The U.S. is so powerful that the decisions it makes affect the lives of the majority of the world's populations. When the U.S. starts making clear it that it alone is going to decide the fate of all those people, it seems natural that people are going to start to band together and resist. They were willing to live under American exceptionalism, but they will resist American triumphalism.

    Even as powerful as the U.S. is, if all the peoples of the world band together to curtail American power, they will succeed. Our past leaders had the insight to understand how special it was to be a global superpower, and yet have so much of the world be content with it, and not offer up that much resistance. This Administration has been the first since WW2 to take American power for granted.

    (This is one reason why issues like redefining torture can cripple us. Let's say hypothetically torture has some benefit in extracting information out of Islamic terrorists. The tradeoff is that the rest of the world sees that Americans are no longer going to concern themselves with being exceptional, that they are going to act like any other nation does, and thus no longer can be trusted with the power they wield. So the world will start working together to constrain that power.)

    This is why the United States currently is weaker than it has been at any time since WW2 ended, at a time in history when that power really could come in handy. We still have our economic might, and a significant fraction of the military might we enjoyed six years ago. But our ability to lead and to persuade the rest of the world has been eviscerated.

    There has always been resentment and envy around the world for the position America finds itself in. Decades ago, European leaders would come to the U.S. and talk nice to the Presidents and do all the friendly photo-ops, then go back to Europe and tell their own media what a dope the U.S. President is.

    But while there always has been resentment, there has not been a will to gang up on the U.S. But now the genie is out of the bottle. Bush himself has been much more interested in the agendas of allies and potential allies in his second term, and it has borne some fruit. But the damage of his first term has been done, and the nations of the world understand that even when Bush leaves office, there is still a good chance somebody similarly indifferent to the rest of the world, and willing to press American power for America's benefit, everybody else be damned, can get into power here.

    The response to Chavez and Ahmadinejad in that light was not so much endorsement of their ideas, so many of which are insane, as it was an outlet for the resentment and disillusionment a lot of nations feel over the events I describe.

    A++ historically accurate and stayed on topic.


  3. #78
    The Great Eight Ocotillo's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Post Count
    4,029
    Good Post ES.

    Nations do things because it is in their interest to do them. Nations can't be "friends" with other nations and how the people of other nations view each other is due largely to the views that are put forth by those they respect.

    People hate the U.S. and people love the U.S. but don't think that the U.S. or, even those countries called home by these U.S.-haters and U.S.-lovers care one whit about their nations popularity in the world

    The only thing a nation should care about is whether or not its interests are being served, protected, and maintained. To the extent these interests intersect with those of other countries, we form alliances and treaties and partnerships. To the extent these interests differ with other countries' interests we disagree, we use diplomacy to change their policy, or we go to war.

    Geopolitics isn't a popularity contest.
    I respect your opinion on this but disagree. (I do agree ES gave a good post). While it is not a popularity contest, it does help to devolp close alliances and relationships and I see that being in our national interest.

  4. #79
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    I respect your opinion on this but disagree. (I do agree ES gave a good post). While it is not a popularity contest, it does help to devolp close alliances and relationships and I see that being in our national interest.
    Other nations are not going to forego alliances and relationships with the United States of America when it is in their best interests to do so -- no matter what their respective populations or leaders think of us or our President. Period. It just doesn't matter.

  5. #80
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    25,321
    Other nations are taking steps away from us right now. Many of these nations understand that they must appease their own people. No matter how fondly you think about Europe, we need their support.

    Chavez put Bush on the rhetorical canvas. He may be crazy, but right now it's like a fox. He goes into Harlem and gives the needy free oil. Bush sits back and allows US oil to rape us repeatedly to the point where we all suffer.

    Masterful left hook by Chavez.

  6. #81
    Veteran 01Snake's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Post Count
    4,540

    Chavez put Bush on the rhetorical canvas. He may be crazy, but right now it's like a fox. He goes into Harlem and gives the needy free oil. Bush sits back and allows US oil to rape us repeatedly to the point where we all suffer.

    Masterful left hook by Chavez.
    So were simply not giving enough handouts to the poor huh??

  7. #82
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    Other nations are taking steps away from us right now. Many of these nations understand that they must appease their own people. No matter how fondly you think about Europe, we need their support.
    But, they need ours more and in more crucial ways. And, so long as that is true, it doesn't matter what Livingston and Galloway think.

    Chavez put Bush on the rhetorical canvas. He may be crazy, but right now it's like a fox. He goes into Harlem and gives the needy free oil. Bush sits back and allows US oil to rape us repeatedly to the point where we all suffer.
    Okay, this is just stupid on so many levels. scott, care to take this one?

    Masterful left hook by Chavez.
    Yeah, masterful.

    By the way, anyone remember this?



    Now, look at the expression on the little girl's face:



    If you think Chavez is crazy like a fox or "masterful" in the diplomatic/geopolitical arena, you're just another useful idiot...like those "human shields" Saddam Hussein exploited in 1990.

  8. #83
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    This is how america should try to spread democracy, not with guns. US is the richest country in the world, it's time you started using that fact to your advantage. Or not and communism makes a comeback...
    You obviously got to be kiddin! Would you, you
    poor simple minded person, that you are, like to
    just look at recent history. Not just in Bush's
    administration but Clinton's. And all the way back
    to Reagan's. How did our rich's do anything but
    cause the death of many American Servicemen and civilians? The only thing these people
    understand is pure power. The want YOU and ME
    dead, what part of that do you not understand?

  9. #84
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    A++ historically accurate and stayed on topic.

    Oh, thank you teach, golly gee. It is so nice you
    are here to keep everyone on topic. Even if you
    don't know what you are talking about most of the
    time.

  10. #85
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    Other nations are taking steps away from us right now. Many of these nations understand that they must appease their own people. No matter how fondly you think about Europe, we need their support.

    Chavez put Bush on the rhetorical canvas. He may be crazy, but right now it's like a fox. He goes into Harlem and gives the needy free oil. Bush sits back and allows US oil to rape us repeatedly to the point where we all suffer.

    Masterful left hook by Chavez.
    Well Mister smart guy. Just how much of the
    worlds oil does our B I G oil control? Come on
    don't cop out with your crap. Tell us. You
    sound like a feminist who claims a husband
    who has sex with his wife is raping her.

  11. #86
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    25,321
    Maybe it's just your delivery. Anyway, it sounds senseless.

    Yoni, how much more should we suffer before big oil findly gets full?

  12. #87
    Veteran 01Snake's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Post Count
    4,540
    Maybe it's just your delivery. Anyway, it sounds senseless.

    Yoni, how much more should we suffer before big oil findly gets full?
    Suffering? Gas is cheap as right now.

    Coffee on the other hand...

  13. #88
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    25,321
    I could understand if big oil were barely sqeezing out a profit.

    And xray....I think you could use one.

  14. #89
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Post Count
    26,781
    I could understand if big oil were barely sqeezing out a profit.

    And xray....I think you could use one.
    Maybe you could understand if you'd look at "big oil's" profit history over the course of a few decades instead of just in the moment.

    But, seriously, I doubt you'll ever understand.

  15. #90
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    I could understand if big oil were barely sqeezing out a profit.

    And xray....I think you could use one.
    I could use what? You still haven't answered the
    question. How much oil does the American
    Companies control? That they can control prices
    worldwide. You are typical of people like you. Just
    throw out a statement with no facts.

  16. #91
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    25,321
    Sorry xray, I meant oil profits off of americans.

  17. #92
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Post Count
    11,756
    People who think some countries and it's inhabitants hate the US because it is rich and powerful (and only because it's rich an powerful) are naiive, to say the least.

  18. #93
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Post Count
    11,756
    They hate America, and nothing we could say or do would change that fact. They hate us because we are the richest and most free country in the world and they really want to be us, but can't.
    Exhibit #1

  19. #94
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Post Count
    31,094
    I would simply point to the fact that Bush's actions in the foreign policy arena tend to give asshats like Chavez ammunition. Any president would likely do so as the anti-US crowd would hate us regardless, but Bush seems to be especially ham-handed when it comes to diplomacy.
    RandomGuy, JFK (Demo) did the same thing with Cuba back in the day. What's your point? I think that all turned out okay.

    Admit it, you hate W., and get on with your life.

    And before 9/11 I would agree totally with Extra Stout's post, from beginning to end. After 9/11, I'm not so sure we can play it the same way anymore.

    We are in the transition from a period of time where mutually assured destruction was something that kept both sides from pulling the trigger.

    Now we're dealing with a foe in radical Islam that welcomes death and does everything it can to bring about a response to hasten it. The rules have changed. I'm not 100% convinced that the way we're doing this is the right way, but time will tell.

    If I had my way we would have wiped out the AFghan/Pakistan border 9/12 with a nuke and that would have been the end of that.

  20. #95
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Post Count
    31,094
    A++ historically accurate and stayed on topic.
    I just looked up irony in the dictionary, and this post from Dan is there as the definition.

  21. #96
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    9,148
    You obviously got to be kiddin! Would you, you
    poor simple minded person, that you are, like to
    just look at recent history. Not just in Bush's
    administration but Clinton's. And all the way back
    to Reagan's. How did our rich's do anything but
    cause the death of many American Servicemen and civilians? The only thing these people
    understand is pure power. The want YOU and ME
    dead, what part of that do you not understand?
    I think "these people" would be hard pressed to find Slovenia on the map, let alone ME.

    When i say use the riches, i don't mean put dictators in power and buy them weapons.

    You can control through power/fear or through friendship/respect. The first one is easier, but be wary when that power is gone, you might find out you have no real friends left.

  22. #97
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Post Count
    9,096
    I think "these people" would be hard pressed to find Slovenia on the map, let alone ME.

    When i say use the riches, i don't mean put dictators in power and buy them weapons.

    You can control through power/fear or through friendship/respect. The first one is easier, but be wary when that power is gone, you might find out you have no real friends left.
    You speak of foreign aid, I think. You should look up how much the US of A
    has given in money, goods and blood to help nations of the world and what
    has it gotten us from those that want to kill us. Nada, zip, zilch or nothing.
    What ever term you would like to apply.

  23. #98
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Post Count
    154,406
    Why would we expect anything from those who would want to kill us?

  24. #99
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    But hey, we haven't been hit on our soil in 5 years cause we're fightin' them over there instead of over here. Tell that to our allies the Brits. And what will the wingnuts say when some s bag jihadists gets lucky and does successfully do something on our soil again?
    Don't forget Spain.

  25. #100
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    RandomGuy, a straw man fallacy/argument is by no means restricted to the republicans - it's a tool used by pretty much every politician who ever breathed. alluding that it is a conservative strategy alone is ludicrous.
    You are correct. But I see fallacious logic being used MUCH more on the conservative side, so much so that I think new small number of conservative die-hards have got to be at least a little detached from logic/reason.

    Are there equivalents on the liberal side? yeah. You see it in every good political forum.

    But the greatest number of rational, logical, moral people I have ever seen tend to be progressives.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •