Adaptable Popovich is among NBA's best

[Tommy Duncan]

There was enough talent on that 1994-95 team to win 62 games and the 1 seed.

[Whottt]

Michael Jordan's first year of retirment the Bulls won 55 games and took the eventual Eastern Champs to 7 games in the semifinals. The same Eastern Champs that took Haeem's NBA Champs to 7 games.

In 90-91 Hakeem missed 26 games with a fractured eyesocket and his team went on the longest winning streak in team history and posted the best record ever in Rockets history to that point.

The very next year Hakeem played in all 82 games and the Rockets missed the playoffs. I give him a pass though...he had to deal with Avery as his PG that year.

[Whottt]

There was enough talent on that 1994-95 team to win 62 games and the 1 seed.

And there was enough talent on the one team that was 2 games better to beat them, to have been the defending champions, with one of the NBA's 50 greatest added....

Fact...

That team won 62 games you are right...Few remember that Dennis Rodman missed 33 games during the regular season that year...

Subtracting that and Drob...you have a core of Vinny, Sean, AJ...

The same core that started out the season 3-15 in 96-97(healthy I might add)...on a team with Dominique Wilkins...and no David Robinson

[Tommy Duncan]

That's not the point. DRob had enough talent around him in the playoffs and he didn't get it done. You win in the playoffs because your superstar rises to the occassion.

[From Way Downtown]

sorry, Tommy beat me to it.

[Whottt]

It's an interesting way to look at it, and I'll admit that I know you're right on that point, primarily because the Spurs were abysmal during the two long stretches that David missed (the end of 1991-92, (5-9 without David) and most of 1996-97, (17-59)). But I think the number is skewed a bit, only because of that awful 1996-97 season.

You can't excuse that 96-97 season like that...How come when MJ retired it didn't result in an awful season? How come when Hakeem got injured it didn't result in an awful season?

It was an awful season because Drob got injured, figure it out...We dumped AJ and Sean with no replacments in 93-94...we still won 57 games...

Because the Admiral busted out with one of the greatest individual seasons in NBA history...



29.8 PPG...No center has averaged more per game since that season.

4.8 APG...Only 2 centers have averaged more assists per game since that season...Brad Miller and Vlade Divac, both last season. And actually only about 8 Centers in history have ever averaged more assists per game for a season than DRob did that year...their names are Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Walton...and the like.

[Whottt]

That's not the point. DRob had enough talent around him in the playoffs and he didn't get it done. You win in the playoffs because your superstar rises to the occassion.

He did not have the talent to win an NBA le around him...ever, not for one single year of his career..other than maybe 89-90.


See I present facts...and you present what you pull from your ass...

Take Drob away from the core of that 62 win team and they were ...as we saw in 96-97.


You cannot say the same of Jordan's Bulls...

You cannot even say the same of Hakeem's Rockets.

The core groups of both of those champions...were winning ing teams without their so called passionate SuperStars...

David Robinson's team was not.

How many ing stats and facts do you need put in front of your face before you acknowledge this?

You guys sound like the guys who used to call John Elway gutless and choking...the guys that used to make jokes about him trying to shoot himself in the head and missing...

Why? Because he was good enough to get his team to games where they were hopeless overmatched...

Like DRob..when Elway got the pieces around him...he won.

[Whottt]

FWDT...it's not just 96-97...

The Spurs never had a winning record in the games Drob missed anytime he missed 2 games or more.

The were 5-9 in 91-92.
They were 1-1 in 93-94.
And they were a ghastly 17-59 without him in 96-97...

Who the **** was on that 96-97 team?

Well let's see...Avery passionate Johnson lead the team in minutes and games played...

Sean Elliot was there...

Vinny D was there.

Oh and Gregg Poppovich was there...

Looks the like Marcus Bryant headjob squad to me.

Take Drob out and they were the worst team in the NBA...even with Dominique Wilkins...

And I'm sure you guys will rate Dominique over Drob in the passion department as well.

[Whottt]

The Spurs without Tim Duncan... in 99-00 they were 5-3 without Duncan.

Last year they were 7-4.

Hakeem's team posted the best record in team history the year he missed the most games.

Jordan's team was probably still the 3rd or 4th best team in the NBA without him..

When Jordan missed 65 games early in his career the Bulls still made the playoffs.

When Jordan retired for a year and a half his teams had winning records without him.

Tim Duncan's teams in his entire career are a total of 12-7 without him...

David Robinson's teams without him are a grand total of 24-69.

There are astronimical differences in those numbers...and when you look at the cores of those teams without their superstars, they are very close to the cores that won les with them.

David Robinson's team was the worst team in Spur history without him...with a similar basic core.

There is a huge disparity there and anyone who doesn't see it...is not looking at things objectively.

[Admiral]

As the superstar and leader of the Spurs, I have no problem holding DRob responsible for the Spurs' successes and failures during David's career. It's only fair to hold David responsible for the meltdown in Houston in the 1995 WCF's, just as we credit him for being responsible for the 35-win improvement during his rookie season. I hold him partially responsible, but not directly responsible. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the man he is and was.

I have a problem with some of the logic being used here. In one sentence, someone says that DRob had enough talent around him to win a le, and then blames David totally for the loses with no further mention of the supporting cast. My question to you is this: how did the guys who made up David's supporting casts perform during our playoff disappointments? What are their dropoffs in production? My prediction is that it was a huge dropoff. Yes, David had some notable playoff failures, but the supporting cast's inability to even keep their games at a consistent level in the playoffs is most likely the cause of the Spurs' demise. Players who were counted on during the season could not be counted on during the playoffs.

I don't have time to look it up, but I would love to see regular season numbers versus playoff numbers for DRob's supporting cast - the one that was supposedly good enough to help the Spurs win a le. Let's see comparisons for Elliott, AJ, Del Negro, etc. I bet you will see a huge dropoff, and you will not see such an aberration for role players like Cassell, Horry, Drexler, Pippen, Horace Grant, etc. Rather, you will see an increase in their numbers. If anyone has time to do a little research and report back to us, that would be great. I look forward to seeing the results.

Edit: Pippen should not be considered a role player, nor should Drexler. They were stars, something DRob never really had unless you want to be generous and include Elliott. But that's fodder for another post.

[SAmikeyp]

Well said, 5-0.

What is boils down to is this. Its a team game. To have success, you have to have it as a team. More than once has it been proven that one guy cannot do it all. Some of the blame does go to David but there is plenty to go around.

[Tommy Duncan]

This is basketball not football or baseball. One superstar can dominate a game and be the focal point of a team. If you remove him then the structure of the team changes and it's an entirely different team.

DRob was not consumed by the game. Just like if he had ended up as an engineer he'd probably work hard at it and do a good job but he would treat it as a duty and not a love.

[SAmikeyp]

Can a superstar win a game? yes, win a championship, no. not by himself anymore.

[Tommy Duncan]

Hakeem did it. If not him then it would have been Ewing.

[Whottt]

Yeah, Hakeem did it all by himself...

Sam Cassell - who beat AJ's career best scoring game, off the bench, in game 6 VS the Spurs.
Otis Thorpe
Clyde Drexler

Mario Elie
Robert Horry

Horry and Elie have more rings than Hakeem does...Horry has more rings than any SuperStar he played with...

David Robinson had Sean Elliot...who missed the game winning and tying FT's in game 1....

Hakeem had Robert Horry...who hit the game winning shot(and would go on to hit quite a few others) in that same game.

[Whottt]

Admiral, I agree with 90% of what you said but I disagree just a bit on what the role players statistics should be...

On a team with a dominant bigman... If the role players are doing their jobs, it's not their statistics that will show a marked increase, it will be the dominant bigmans.

Is it a coincidence that David's greatest season was followed with by far his most disappointing post season performance?

And no, I'm not talking about 94-95...

I'm talking about 93-94 when David Robinson produced one of the greatest individual seasons ever...There was no AJ on that team, no Sean...The PG rotation consisted of Vinny Del Negro, Willie Anderson and a Sleepy Floyd on his very last lets.

David led the team in assists, ppg, mins, steals, blocks,...basically every category except rebounding which Rodman lead...

He lead the league in scoring...4th Quad double in NBA history...A Spur Team that won 57 games with even less of a starting PG than usual...

And when they hit the playoffs they got destroyed by the Utah Jazz...David shot 411% against the Jazz..his worst showing ever...is it any coincidence that that happened in a season in which his team was realiant on him to do everything? No, the Jazz simply gangraped him in the post...and I don't mean double teamed him...I mean they had 5 guys on him, fouling him. I was there in person and saw it.


When David had the supporting cast..particularly the guards...his post season numbers were exponentially better, this was when he was much younger. I don't think he became less motivated or softer as he got older...inspite of the decline in his post season numbers.

So rather than doing alot of research on teamates of HOF centers or even other players...it can be done much easier...just find another HOF center of the modern era that had to try to win a le with a starting PG with such a limited perimeter game that he made only 1 post season 3 pointer in his entire career...there isn't one, other than David.

[Tommy Duncan]

Drexler wasn't with the Rockets in 1994.

And it's not like DRob didn't have any name teammates of his own to play with pre-1997.

Elliott
mings
Strickland
Ellis
Rodman
Person
WAnderson

For example.

Again, the man had enough talent surrounding him to put up a 62 win season in 1994-95 and win the 1 seed. Prior to that the Spurs had enough talent to win division les and get solid playoff seeding. Remember the 1993 playoffs when Barkley's Suns knocked the Spurs out? Did the Spurs really not have enough talent on that team?

Stop pretending like he was all by himself.

Anyways, he clearly didn't have the passion for the game that other greats did. As you can see most non-Spur basketball fans agree with that assessment, as well as some of us Spurs fans who don't take a criticism of DRob's game as an attack on David Robinson the man.

[Whottt]

Again, the man had enough talent surrounding him to put up a 62 win season in 1994-95 and win the 1 seed.

But not enough to beat the defending champions...and not because of Drob. The coaching wasn't very good in that series(unless you think Bob Hill should still be the coach and Pop god was mistaken to fire him).

Prior to that the Spurs had enough talent to win division les and get solid playoff seeding.

Because of David Robinson, without him, they were not a playoff team...unlike Jordan's Bulls and Hakeem's Rockets.

Remember the 1993 playoffs when Barkley's Suns knocked the Spurs out? Did the Spurs really not have enough talent on that team?

I'd say no...Remember the previous year when the Barkleyless Suns destroyed the Robinsonless Spurs as the road team? Those Spurs having Strickland, mings, and Elliot (otherwise known as David's help) on them...

Stop pretending like he was all by himself.

Stop pretending like those were playoff teams, or even close to it, without David Robinson, when they weren't. Unlike the Bulls and Rockets...and our modern Spurs.

Anyways, he clearly didn't have the passion for the game that other greats did.

Clearly your head is up your ass because you haven't even come close to justifying that claim.

As you can see most non-Spur basketball fans agree with that assessment,

I'd hazzard a guess that most non-SpurFans saw 2-3 games a year of the Spurs back then. Far less than I, who was a season ticket holder.

as well as some of us Spurs fans who don't take a criticism of DRob's game as an attack on David Robinson the man.

You're much like an American hating liberal who hates his own in attempt to be liked by others that hate us...


In this case I feel you cling to these false beliefs in an effort to justify yourself as some type of unbiased fan...In doing so you embrace a very real and unjustified Anti Drob bias..

I mean you automatically assume that because someone is a non SpurFan they more objective on the subject...Well I'd say what most of them do is parrot media takes from DRob's career, made by those who didn't watch him play that often, and lived in cities that were direct compe ors of the Spurs...

[Nikos]

Stop pretending like those were playoff teams, or even close to it, without David Robinson, when they weren't. Unlike the Bulls and Rockets...and our modern Spurs.

The Bulls were certainly a very good team without MJ. At least in the first season when they had Scottie, HoG, BJ, and Kukoc. The Next season they were only a few games above .500 when MJ came back for the last 17 games, and they finished 47-35. But they didn't have a big man that season.

The Rockets were not a playoff team without Hakeem. They might have went on a great streak without him, but if they had to play an entire season without Hakeem -- they wouldn't be a very good team -- at least by the 1993-94 season and seasons before that.

Drob's best support was in 1994-95 when he had Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliot. Perhaps that was the defining moment where he would be seperated just below Hakeem in the list of great all time centers and overall players in NBA history.

If their is ever a season to fault Drob, it was probably that one. But then again, Hakeem did have Drexler. Even though strangely enough, the Rockets just weren't that good for much of that season with or without Hakeem, until playoff time.

Tough argument here, especially considering there were seasons where Hakeem underachived greatly, and also times when Drob and Hakeem had hardly any support in comparison with a Michael Jordan having a Scottie Pippen, likewise with Shaq having Kobe and Penny.....

[ducks]

did mj win without any help:Q

[Whottt]

Let's see...who do I take...

Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler, Mario Elie and Vernon Maxwell...

or Vinny Del Negro, Avery Johnson, Doc Rivers and a decrepit Willie Anderson

Ya...there's a lot to think about there....I give it about 5 seconds thinking I would probably keep Doc Rivers over Mad Max...and then I am done thinking about which was the better set of guards there. subtract Clyde Drexler from that list and I still don't have to think about it for longer than 5 seconds.

It's stupid to even consider it longer than 5 seconds.


Then you look at Elliot VS Horry...Well I love Elliot and he played hard during the regular season...much harder than Horry ever did...

But Elliot was the one who missed 2 FT's in game 1 and Horry was the one who hit the game winner.

A very tough choice...but the highlight of Elliot's career was an annual event with Horry and his 5 rings.

And I guess the Rockets and Spurs answer that question for us...We tried to trade Elliot for Horry and the Rockets said no thanks.

So that leaves Rodman was Chucky Brown...well I probably go with Rodman there...unfortunately he wasn't used as a defender on the top post player against the Rockets...so if you think about that then what good was he? Certainly not a big help for his offense...

Especially since his screwing around caused him to miss 1 game of that series.

There is absolutely no doubt who had the superior team in that matchup.


Nikos...that regular season performance of the 94-95 Rockets was typical of Hakeem teams...no matter if he was surrounded by HOF'ers like Barkley, Pippen and Drexler or not...

His teams always underachieved in the regular season and breaking 50 wins was huge deal for a Hakeem Olajuwon team...it was a huge deal if a David Robinson team didn't...

Hakeem only won more than 50 games 5 times in an 18 year career....one of those times Hakeem missed a third of the season.

David Robinson teams won 50 games 10 times in a 14 year career...there was one time they fell short due to a late season injury to David..And of course when David missed a ton of games his team won Tim Duncan....not a playoff series, like Jordan's team.

So again I ask...where was Hakeem's passion? He must have been saving it for the playoffs. : puke

[Nikos]

So again I ask...where was Hakeem's passion? He must have been saving it for the playoffs. :p uke

His passion was demonstrated in 1993-95. Heck his team was good in 1992-93, but they also underacheived a bit and lost to the Sonics (who they probably could have beaten that season).

But yes, Hakeem did underachieve in a few seasons as well.

Only reason he ever gets more respect than Drob is simply because of the 9495 playoffs, where he played exceptional basketball and beat Drob's team. Yes he wasn't all alone, but Hakeem was playing legendary basketball when it counted most. He had help, but Drob had his best support that season as well. Rodman and Elliot is pretty good 3-4 combo to have. It sucks that Elliot didn't step up a bit more, but its hard to predict what would have happened if Spurs support was a little more clutch. But either way, you have to give Hakeem the slight nod in that series regardless. Doesn't mean Hakeem had a better regular season career than Drob (he didn't), but he deserves the slight credit over Drob for beating him without Homecourt, as the teams leader. He played incredible ball all throughout that 95 playoffs.

Also in 1994 he won the le without a second banana, something Drob had the opportunity to do as well in 1993-94. However I would say Hakeem had the better support even then, but not by a huge margin.

Drob was a little more unlucky, but his regular season dominance was as good if not better than Shaq or Hakeem's.

Overall, these three Centers are all very close. But Hakeem actually did beat Drob. Drob and Shaq never met in their primes in a playoff series (although many expected the Spurs and Magic to meet in the 95 finals, I know I did). So, its tough to give the edge to either, considering Shaq could only win les with Kobe.

[Whottt]

All I know is that Hakeem beat David a total of 12 times in his career...16 if you include that series...They played in the same division for 12 years...and they played each other in 13 of those years...

Yet Hakeem won 1/3rd of the time he faced David Robinson...he averaged less than 1 win per year when they ususally met 4 times per season.

That one year when Hakeem was a 10 year veteran and David was having his first big playoffs...is not a fair judge and it never will be to me...unless of course people are also going to rate Hakeem over Shaq...

I really don't have a problem with people rating Hakeem over David...Hakeem beat every great center of his era in the post season, in a dominant performance....I have a problem with people saying David was the reason his teams didn't win...when he was the only reason they were in the playoffs in the first place.

I can easily see Jordan and Hakeem's teams making the post season(if not winning it all) without them...I can never see that with any of Drob's teams...and the small sampling of numbers we have to look at in the case of these superstars, of their teams performances without them, bears that theory out.

[Whottt]

And you know Marcus Bryant mentioned Charles Barkley and the Suns win over Drob..


Well that Suns team was a playoff team without Charles Barkley...in fact a few years before that team knocked off the defending WC Champion Lakers in the playoffs...

Yet the Sixers who traded Barkley to the Suns failed to make the playoffs with Barkley the previous season.

So that's another case of dropping a SuperStar onto what would be a playoff team without him and that SuperStar nearly winning a le...or winning a le...

The only similar indicators we have like that with David Robinson are teams being lottery teams without him...twice his addition to a team ended up with the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history.

The evidence clearly shows that David Robinson did more with less than any player in NBA history...including Jordan, Kareem Hakeem, Wilt and anyone else you want to name.

[Nikos]

I can easily see Jordan and Hakeem's teams making the post season(if not winning it all) without them...I can never see that with any of Drob's teams...and the small sampling of numbers we have to look at in the case of these superstars, of their teams performances without them, bears that theory out.

Granted the Bulls were contenders without MJ.

But do you honestly think Houston had even the slightest chance at the le without Hakeem? Thats crazy.