MVP Debate Rages On

[PM5K]

A team should win a minimum of fifty games for a player to be considered, not a hard and fast rule but if I used that as a rule of thumb Kobe would be out, Lebron would be in...

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Dirk does what the team needs to win all the time pretty much.

like the last two times against the suns?

[Findog]

like the last two times against the suns?

Like the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns?

You just got OWNED Spurs fan, just like your team is OWNED by the Mavericks.

[Kobulingam]

Like the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns?

You just got OWNED Spurs fan, just like your team is OWNED by the Mavericks.

Take Josh Howard off the Mavs team with a microfracture injury and replace him with a bench warmer from another team. Can Dirk do what Nash did with a depleted roster last year?

[Findog]

Take Josh Howard off the Mavs team with a microfracture injury and replace him with a bench warmer from another team. Can Dirk do what Nash did with a depleted roster last year?

I would hardly call Tim Thomas's performance last year "benchwarmer-esque." When he wants to, he can be a stud. Nash, Barbosa, Marion, Thomas, Bell, Diaw, James Jones going 54-28 and advancing to the conference finals doesn't count as a "depleted roster" in my book. How do you explain them needing 7 games to get past the Lakers? The Lakers had no business being in a Game 7 against Phoenix but they did it. Kobe showed what a true MVP is, taking a team on his back and nearly knocking off a much superior team. And he didn't quit until Game 7 was a lost cause, he stopped initiating when his team was down 21.

If you took Josh Howard off the Mavs and replaced him with someone with a median PER, they'd still win 50+ games. KG won the MVP the one year he was actually surrounded by talent. Dirk is getting MVP consideration surrounded by a deep and talented roster. Kobe got MVP consideration when he played alongside Shaq. In the case of KG and Kobe, those same players are currently surrounded by D-Leaguers and instead get criticized for their on-court performances, which have largely remained the same. It would seem that best player on one of the best teams is the biggest criterion for "MVP." Like I've stated elsewhere, this is just masturbation and something to talk about until the real season starts. If Dirk was playing for Atlanta right now, the Hawks would be a little better than they are now but he wouldn't be getting any "MVP" love. It's just wankery.

[Kobulingam]

Listen. Suns lose Joe Johnson, Q, Amare, they bring 3+ new players in and Nash makes the new players instant stars.

Coincidence? Nash, as a leader and a playmaker is making men out of these boys. Too bad some of them suck like crap once they leave the Nashdom. But new crap can always be brought in to be touched by King Midas.


Now, HONESTLY, who do you think makes teammates better? Nash or Dirk?

Open your eyes.

EDIT:

No jokes about "Nash touching all these boys to make them men" please.

[Findog]

Listen. Suns lose Joe Johnson, Q, Amare, they bring 3+ new players in and Nash makes the new players instant stars.

Coincidence? Nash, as a leader and a playmaker is making men out of these boys. Too bad some of them suck like crap once they leave the Nashdom. But new crap can always be brought in to be touched by King Midas.


Now, HONESTLY, who do you think makes teammates better? Nash or Dirk?

Open your eyes.

You honestly think Josh Howard would be throwing up 19 and 7 without Dirk drawing a double team? There's a reason Dirk is considered a matchup nightmare and one of the toughest covers in the league -- he forces you to pick your poison, cover him straight up or give somebody else open looks. You think Diaw and Bell are scrubs? Bell has worked his ass off to become a two-way player, Diaw is the rare big man that can handle and pass the ball. TT can be a very, very good player when he cares, which he did last year in Phoenix since he was playing for a contract. And are you saying that Joe Johnson has "sucked like crap" since leaving Phoenix?

As for who makes their teammates better, it's a wash. Dirk is a good help defender and a mediocre on the ball defender. Unlike Nash, he's not a total liability on one end of the court, that helps his team out. On offense, he forces opposing teams to make difficult choices and Terry, Harris and Howard all benefit as a result. Nash is terrible whether he's playing his man or helping out. He doesn't make his teammates better or do his team any favors on the defensive end. He's a wonderful distributor on the offensive end that gets his team high-percentage looks. But the Suns are a wonderful regular-season team and not much else, which I'm sure you'll agree with when the Spurs eliminate them in six games. I'm really not impressed that the Suns can hang 130 points on the Charlottes, Atlantas and Milwaukees of the league in December. I think this is instructive, disregarding tonight's game against Utah when they had nothing to play for, here is how Dallas, San Antonio and Phoenix stack up regarding their compe ion:

Dallas vs Western Conference Playoff teams: 16-10 *
vs Eastern Conference Playoff teams: 13-3
vs Playoff teams overall: 29-13
vs Lottery Teams: 36-0 **

San Antonio vs Western Conference Playoff teams: 17-10 *
vs Eastern Conference Playoff teams: 11-5
vs Playoff teams overall: 28-16
vs Lottery teams: 30-5

Phoenix vs Western Conference Playoff teams: 13-11 *
vs Eastern Conference Playoff teams: 13-3
vs Playoff teams overall: 26-14
vs Lottery Teams: 33-5

* I'm including Golden State since they're currently tied with the Clippers for the 8 seed. Phoenix rolls up the wins against teams they won't see in the playoffs. Nash has historically sucked in the Conference Finals the three times he got there. I could give a if he makes Amare or Marion look good against Memphis or Portland. If you want to talk about boys and men, San Antonio and Dallas are the latter and Phoenix is the former.

** Looks like Dirk and the Mavs don't take nights off, huh?

[adidas11]

One thing that needs to be noted, is that the last time a player won the MVP award and did NOT win at least a division le was back in 1988. Michael Jordan, when he averaged 35.0 pts per game AND won the Defensive Player of the Year. Every year since then, the MVP was on a team that at least won their division.

So using that criteria, we can eliminate players like Lebron James (who I still think will eventually surpass everyone in the league by a longshot), Kobe, and Tim Duncan. That leaves Nash and Dirk.

Now Dirk has just led his team to potentially one of the best records in NBA history. Phoenix has had a great year as well, but still not on the same level as Dallas. And I'm sorry, but when I look at Phoenix, I can name 2 or 3 other point guards in the league, that if you replaced Nash with one of them, Phoenix would be just as effective or even better.

So this year, its Dirk, hands down.

[Findog]

I actually hope Nash wins the damn thing again...the great ones always use perceived slights and disrespect as fuel for greatness...i.e. Hakeem over D-Rob and Michael Jordan inventing slights to motivate himself.

[Cry Havoc]

Listen. Suns lose Joe Johnson, Q, Amare, they bring 3+ new players in and Nash makes the new players instant stars.

Yep. They play some damn good offensive basketball. Nash is the best distributing PG in the game. No argument at all here.

Coincidence? Nash, as a leader and a playmaker is making men out of these boys.

Yep. They're scoring lots of points.

Now, HONESTLY, who do you think makes teammates better? Nash or Dirk?

I'd like to pose a question back at you: Who do you think makes their teammates better on the defensive side of the ball? You can argue numbers and intangibles all day long -- the bottom line is that Nash is an absolute sieve on defense against a good point guard. Jordan made his teammates better on both ends of the court. His passing and playmaking gave them confidence on the O end of things, and his ability to lock down his man and make clutch steals and blocks (the latter of which is far too often forgotten) made his teammates work harder 100% of the time they were on the floor.

I'm not trying to compare Nash to Jordan here. I'm just stating that if you say a player makes his team better, you had better be prepared to defend such a blanket statement. Nash makes his teammates dominant on offense, but when the other team has the ball, especially a quick PG like Parker, Nash makes his teammates look absolutely horrible. And you would too if you had to step across the lane to shut down a penetrating point guard all day long, which frees your man up on the wing and forces the entire D to play rotation to keep up with the ball movement.

There is just no way you can tell me "Nash makes his teammates better" and mean it for an entire game. He makes them look like fools on the D end of things because they have to hold his hand to guard anyone.

Not to hate on Nash. He's amazing. He's doing stuff I haven't seen in many, many years. But I cannot discount the complete failure he has been in the playoffs, mostly because he doesn't have the lateral foot speed to stop anyone.

Nash. Loses. Games.

Or more accurately: The Suns complete abhorrence with defense loses games. Only Marion and Bell can be considered good defenders, KT might be above average. Everyone else shows nothing come playoff time when the other team has the ball.

You can't have a 3-time MVP if he can't play D. It makes no sense. When the Suns lose in 6 to the Spurs this year, I'm going to be going, "Wow, there's the 2 (or 3) time MVP getting burned again... and again... and again.... now how is he making his teammates better when Parker flashes by him, again?"

[Findog]

Yep. They play some damn good offensive basketball. Nash is the best distributing PG in the game. No argument at all here.



Yep. They're scoring lots of points.




I'd like to pose a question back at you: Who do you think makes their teammates better on the defensive side of the ball? You can argue numbers and intangibles all day long -- the bottom line is that Nash is an absolute sieve on defense against a good point guard. Jordan made his teammates better on both ends of the court. His passing and playmaking gave them confidence on the O end of things, and his ability to lock down his man and make clutch steals and blocks (the latter of which is far too often forgotten) made his teammates work harder 100% of the time they were on the floor.

I'm not trying to compare Nash to Jordan here. I'm just stating that if you say a player makes his team better, you had better be prepared to defend such a blanket statement. Nash makes his teammates dominant on offense, but when the other team has the ball, especially a quick PG like Parker, Nash makes his teammates look absolutely horrible. And you would too if you had to step across the lane to shut down a penetrating point guard all day long, which frees your man up on the wing and forces the entire D to play rotation to keep up with the ball movement.

There is just no way you can tell me "Nash makes his teammates better" and mean it for an entire game. He makes them look like fools on the D end of things because they have to hold his hand to guard anyone.

Not to hate on Nash. He's amazing. He's doing stuff I haven't seen in many, many years. But I cannot discount the complete failure he has been in the playoffs, mostly because he doesn't have the lateral foot speed to stop anyone.

Nash. Loses. Games.

Or more accurately: The Suns complete abhorrence with defense loses games. Only Marion and Bell can be considered good defenders, KT might be above average. Everyone else shows nothing come playoff time when the other team has the ball.

You can't have a 3-time MVP if he can't play D. It makes no sense. When the Suns lose in 6 to the Spurs this year, I'm going to be going, "Wow, there's the 2 (or 3) time MVP getting burned again... and again... and again.... now how is he making his teammates better when Parker flashes by him, again?"

The fact of the matter is that the Suns are 13-11 against the "Big Boys" this year, teams that would make the Western playoffs. They have to shoot 60%+ from the floor to win. Do you see them doing that 4 out of 7 times against San Antonio, HCA or not? I don't.

[Kobulingam]

News flash: Dirk is not a good defender and he plays a position for which defense is very important for the team.

Listen, Bosh is a better defender than Dirk, better rebounder, and similar offensive output. And Bosh has a low post game, and is more clutch than Dirk (almost perfect freethrow shooter in clutch). So if Raptors won 60 games, would you pick Bosh?

Dirk is not even in top 10 in terms of defense for his position. Stop talking about defense when you're defending DIRK.

Honestly, Duncan is the best player in the NBA. He should be MVP hands down. But since we're only comparing Dirk and Nash, stop bringing up Dirk's amazing defense. He plays a position which is pivotal to defense, but he isn't that good at it. The SYSTEM avery has in place gets credit for the defense.

Hand the MVP to Avery if you want, but not Dirk.

[Cry Havoc]

The fact of the matter is that the Suns are 13-11 against the "Big Boys" this year, teams that would make the Western playoffs. They have to shoot 60%+ from the floor to win. Do you see them doing that 4 out of 7 times against San Antonio, HCA or not? I don't.

See, that is less of a matter to me than the fact that the Suns have been absolutely decimated in b2b WCF. First by the Spurs and then by the Mavs. Neither series was close, neither was that entertaining from an objective point of view. Though I suppose that was only because I knew Phoenix didn't have a chance in , just like this year. Surrendering 45 points in a quarter says a lot about who you are as a team.

Dirk is not even in top 10 in terms of defense for his position. Stop talking about defense when you're defending DIRK.

That's not the point. The point is that Dirk doesn't make his entire team weaker on the D end of things.

If you were to rate them by numbers, Dirk is a 6 on defense, I think. Nash is a 2, and a .5 against fast PGs who can penetrate.

[Findog]

News flash: Dirk is not a good defender and he plays a position for which defense is very important for the team.

Well, I watch the games, so you're wrong. He's slightly below average on the ball, and he's slightly above average help-wise. He rebounds well for his position and the presence of Diop/Dampier covers whatever weaknesses he does have.

Listen, Bosh is a better defender than Dirk, better rebounder, and similar offensive output. And Bosh has a low post game, and is more clutch than Dirk (almost perfect freethrow shooter in clutch). So if Raptors won 60 games, would you pick Bosh?

Raptors can't even win 50 in the Least, so let's stop slurping Bosh's , okay? Dirk shoots 90% from the line, you're going to have to do better than one regular season or Finals game to say he's not clutch at the line. And how many playoff series has Bosh won with his clutch freethrow shooting? Duncan shoots 50% from the line, how many crunchtime FTs has he missed? D-Wade missed two critical ones that gave the Mavs another shot to tie the game in Game 6, you wanna claim D-Wade isn't clutch? He shoots 90% from the line, not 100%.

Trade Dirk for Bosh straight up and the Mavs are not quite as good. Dirk's versatility on the offensive end is what makes the Mavs so dangerous. He shoots over tall guys and backs down smaller guys in the post. He's a 7-footer that can play like a guard, and he has the size and strength to go down on the low blocks if that's what his team needs. He is pretty much unguardable when he camps out on the high post. Bosh is an AllStar and a franchise stud in the making, but he's a conventional cover on the low blocks. Adjusted for age and salary, there's not a General Manager or Coach in the League that would take Bosh over Dirk if he had to win a game or playoff series tomorrow.

Dirk is not even in top 10 in terms of defense for his position. Stop talking about defense when you're defending DIRK.

In the context of comparing Nash to Dirk, I said Dirk was not a liability on defense, unlike Nash. I never said Dirk was the second coming of Bill Russell.

Honestly, Duncan is the best player in the NBA. He should be MVP hands down.

Him or Kobe.

But since we're only comparing Dirk and Nash, stop bringing up Dirk's amazing defense.

Considering I never described Dirk's defense as "amazing," how about you stop responding to strawman arguments?

He plays a position which is pivotal to defense, but he isn't that good at it. The SYSTEM avery has in place gets credit for the defense.

What's that "system"? The Mavs rebound well, rotate well, and are aggressive on the defensive end. Dirk's not a liability on the defensive end, pure and simple. That's not the same thing as equating him with Ben Wallace when it comes to defensive prowess.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Like the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns?

You just got OWNED Spurs fan, just like your team is OWNED by the Mavericks.

just like our 3 rings is old news. pick you battles mav "fans". no "nappy headed" arguments here to squirm out of.

[Findog]

just like our 3 rings is old news. pick you battles mav "fans". no "nappy headed" arguments here to squirm out of.

99, 03 and 05 are about as relevant as a Celtics fan squawking about Larry Bird and Bill Russell. You wanna talk about how we own you now or the past?

[Kobulingam]

99, 03 and 05 are about as relevant as a Celtics fan squawking about Larry Bird and Bill Russell. You wanna talk about how we own you now or the past?

You're funny. Those three rings from the Duncan era, and guess what, Duncan is gonna drop a load on you guys this playoffs.

Duncan > Dirk

Taking age into account, Bosh (just turned 23) > Dirk (peak years)

PF Defense rankings Duncan > ...> KG>... > Bosh > ... >
Dirk > Brand > . > Mamdu Enjai

[Cry Havoc]

99, 03 and 05 are about as relevant as a Celtics fan squawking about Larry Bird and Bill Russell. You wanna talk about how we own you now or the past?

They are completely relevant, particularly 03 and 05. Our team has a ton of championship experience and is used to playing under pressure deep into the playoffs against the best teams in the league.

But that's not what this thread is about. Back on topic. Had I my druthers, I would have the MVP race like this:

1. Dirk, by the slightest of margins
2. Duncan, only because he didn't play as well 1st half
3. Nash, has to be here but a distant 3rd
4. James, he's averaging 28, 7 and 6 people. Stop expecting a 22 year old to avg a trip-doub
5. Kobe, hate putting him here as he tends to make his teammates worse, but the Lakers would be awful without him

Others receiving votes (in order): McGrady, KG, Bosh, Arenas, Anthony, Williams (Utah)

[jochhejaam]

Nowitzki

[mavs>spurs2]

This is Dirk's year. No way Nash wins it again, and the L.A. Kobe's are struggling to even make the playoffs.

[Findog]

They are completely relevant, particularly 03 and 05. Our team has a ton of championship experience and is used to playing under pressure deep into the playoffs against the best teams in the league.

No, they're not relevant, not in a discussion of whether or not Dirk is clutch. The other poster used the last two regular season games against the Suns as evidence Dirk wasn't clutch. I refuted that by pointing to the last two PLAYOFF games against the Suns as evidence Dirk is clutch when it matters most. Since he didn't have a comeback for that, the best he could do was some irrelevant gibberish about "We have three rings, you guys have none." The Spurs' three les have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[Findog]

You're funny. Those three rings from the Duncan era, and guess what, Duncan is gonna drop a load on you guys this playoffs.

Duncan > Dirk

Taking age into account, Bosh (just turned 23) > Dirk (peak years)

PF Defense rankings Duncan > ...> KG>... > Bosh > ... >
Dirk > Brand > . > Mamdu Enjai

You mean that 32 and 13 Duncan dropped on us last year? Wasn't good enough. We pitch and you catch in this relationship now.

Taking age and salary into account, some GMs would rather have Bosh than Dirk. But you'd be the only person in the League that would take Bosh over Dirk to go to war TOMORROW.

[Kobulingam]

No. I'd take Dirk over Bosh today. I'd take Duncan over Dirk today. But considering age I'd take Bosh first.


Here are the votes that I have seen announced already (I don't know why NBA allows ppl you publicize their votes):

Mike Stein (ESPN): Dirk
Billl Walton(ESPN): Nash
Randy Hill (Fox) : Nash.
Marty Burns (CNNSi): Nash.
Jack McAllum (CNNSi): Nash .
Ian Thompsen (CNNSi): Dirk.
Doug Smith (Toronto Star): Nash




Anyone else know of votes please post them here.

[Infamous]

Dirk isn't MVP, he has so much help. Josh Howard an all-star, JT a potential All-star, Dampier a great shot blocker and a dirty work player, Diop another dirty work player, Harris the lightning-quick guard, Stackhouse one of the best six men in the league, I can go on and on. And everytime I check the Mavs always win almost everytime Dirk has a bad game. Whenever Dirk doesn't play, it's not like this team goes to , all his other help steps up and has big games. Dirk doesn't even average a double double because he depends on his dirty work players to get all the boards. I'd rather see Nash get the MVP, although I'm going to vomit at the site of him hoisting up that trophy a third straight time. You can say Nash has as much help as Dirk does, but the truth is when Nash doesn't play, the offense for the Suns is complete . 18 points and 11 assists, around 50 double doubles..MVP-like numbers.

[whottt]

Dirk isn't MVP, he has so much help. Josh Howard an all-star, JT a potential All-star, Dampier a great shot blocker and a dirty work player, Diop another dirty work player, Harris the lightning-quick guard, Stackhouse one of the best six men in the league, I can go on and on. And everytime I check the Mavs always win almost everytime Dirk has a bad game. Whenever Dirk doesn't play, it's not like this team goes to , all his other help steps up and has big games. Dirk doesn't even average a double double because he depends on his dirty work players to get all the boards. I'd rather see Nash get the MVP, although I'm going to vomit at the site of him hoisting up that trophy a third straight time. You can say Nash has as much help as Dirk does, but the truth is when Nash doesn't play, the offense for the Suns is complete . 18 points and 11 assists, around 50 double doubles..MVP-like numbers.

Yeah well...Kobe doesn't have a winning record...Pretty sure the Lakers could accomplish that without him.