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Before I go back and look at my numbers, your numbers indicate that Tony and Manu shoot almost the exact same number of shots per 40 minutes. You pretty much proved your "Tony shoots way more" theory wrong.
As I said, factoring in free throws - they are very, very close to the same (whether your figures or LJ's are right). You have to agree that Tony doesn't shoot WAY more than Manu (per minute).
Before I go back and look at my numbers, your numbers indicate that Tony and Manu shoot almost the exact same number of shots per 40 minutes. You pretty much proved your "Tony shoots way more" theory wrong.
Oh Tim doesn't have immunity, most fans destroy Tim compared to how they treat Manu
Damn it, why am I posting?! I have a lot of work to do.
He played like goat ass in Game 1, what do you want?
Tim is at his own level. He's by far the best player on the team and the player the whole franchise revolves around.
Tony and Manu are great role players. Manu having one great playoff run out of four doesn't give him immunity for life
Maybe for you but certainly not for those of us who are interested in winning more championships.
Yet who was in the last thread like this complaining that timvp was being too harsh?
I feel like I'm Will Farrell in Zoolander here. We're having argument where
I'm saying 1,096 > 854 and you're saying 1,096 = 854.
I don't care who plays more minutes. I'm just saying Player A shoots more than player B and we're arguing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
I would humbly suggest kind sir that perhaps Manu should get MORE shots per minute than Tony since you know, he scores more efficiently an' all. That's the goal, right, to get the ball to your efficient scorers?
BECAUSE YOU WERE. This game too.
I don't think Manu (-6 in 32 mins) deserved the same grade as Elson (-11 in 13 mins) in Game 1. Sorry.
The only thing Manu did very badly in game 1 was shoot poorly in the first half. He barely touched the ball the 2nd half and I don't think his defense was any worse than anyone else's. And certainly not worse than Tony's.
Tim is at his own level. He's by far the best player on the team and the player the whole franchise revolves around.
Tony and Manu are great role players. Manu having one great playoff run out of four doesn't give him immunity for life
Maybe for you but certainly not for those of us who are interested in winning more championships.
First off, they wouldn't have won the last championship without that run.
Secondly, it could be argued that he was the best player on the team in said playoff run.
Thirdly, I don't think Manu played all that shabby last year in the playoffs. There must be a reason he led the team in +/- both rounds last year. All anyone remembers is one play.
Finally, I think you need to adjust your definition of role players. Manu and Tony are stars. Horry, Bowen and Brent are role players.
I feel like I'm in Bahia Blanca dealing with an angry Manu mob that doesn't realize that 2503 > 2064. Of course Parker is going to be the one who shoots more shots because he played in more games and played 500 more minutes.
I'm saying they shot almost the exact same amount of shots per minute. You are the first one to point out PER and other per minute stats ... except in this scenario.
Classic
Why aren't you arguing that Brent Barry should take the most shots on the team? Because you know, Barry is the most efficient scorer on the Spurs.
Let's try that. Next game, Barry should shoot all the shots because he's most efficient player of them all.
Props on the game plan.
For the 15,000th time, the grades are based on what is expected out of each individual player. Just because two players have the same grade doesn't mean I think they had the same impact on the game.
His defense was horrible. You don't want to believe it, so there's not much you can do. Perhaps you can see his improvement in Game 2 as far as him defending much more physically and with more of a concerted effort.
And although you said he couldn't, Manu actually was capable of buying a few possessions on Carmelo. He was able to do the same in 2005 and in Game 2. But when he got destroyed in Game 1, you were the first one with the ready made Manu excuse.
In both games, Manu hasn't been aggressive enough and still isn't playing well enough considering he's the biggest mismatch the Spurs have offensively. You said it yourself before the series, but now you don't want to put any sort of expectations on him.
Barry should get more shots, definitely. We've had this conversation before. It's not a bad thing when he shoots the ball. If you're gonna wait for me to complain that Barry's shooting too damn much, you're gonna wait an awful long time.
They wouldn't have won the championship without Parker, Bowen or Horry, either.
I've said many, many times how great Manu was and how that was one of the best playoff performances I've ever seen. But he wasn't the only indispensable maybe of that team.
Not by anybody who knows there are two sides to a basketball court. While he was as good or a little better than Duncan offensively, Duncan was the far superior defensive presence.
Good but not 2005 good.
Tony and Manu play roles on the Spurs. Neither could win a championship without Duncan or another superstar. That makes them role players ... or great role players as I listed them.
854 > 425
Why the is Manu shooting so much when he should be passing it to a more efficient player?
With all due respect dude, but if you're gonna give Manu an F for game one and a C- for game 2, then perhaps he should have immunity for life for you because obviously your expectations of him are ridiculous. I think his '05 run spoiled you. He was playing out of his mind for a month, scoring like 1.8 points per shot. It's not something that should be expected regularly. I think he had a "B" game 2. C for 1st half, A for 2nd half.
He bought a few in Game one as well. Melo or AI didn't score on him every single time they were matched up in the first game, so stop acting like that happened. I still think, if I had to pick, I'd rather have him take AI than Melo because at least there he can't get posted up and he's not at a height disadvantage.
In the playoffs, the two worst Spurs as far as +/- per 100 possession when on the court compared to when they are off the court:
Elson: -32.2
Ginobili: -26.0
No one else on the team is even in the same ball park of those two.
But yeah, timvp is being way too harsh on Ginobili's first two playoff games.
You're gonna go net points on me here, after two games? Get over yourself. In two games Tony is a -1, Manu is a -4. Not a big difference.
If expecting him to not be in Elson's range of suck is asking too much out of him, I guess I'm guilty as charged.
Manu got lit up in Game 1. I'm not sure which game you were watching.
And Manu never has or never will guard AI. First of all, Manu isn't quick enough and second of all, Manu would waste all his energy within 15 minutes of guarding AI.
I guess we should play Brent 48 mins a night from now on then, huh? I guess when it's convenient for you Brent shouldn't be brought up
And where are the minutes played? It was relevant when you posted about Elson, but not in this comparison?
The same stats you point to all year to prove how Manu is better than everyone else aren't able to be used when Manu is on the short end of the stick.
Got it.
By your standard, you should give Elson a C then because you already think he sucks. As bad as he's been, he couldn't have been any worse than you've said he was all year.
Whatever. I give up. You said that Manu was the biggest key coming into this series because no Nugget can guard him. Manu comes out and is putting up +/- that places him at the bottom of the team and yet he should be given passes because it's the fault of others and he's doing the best he can.
I'll ignore my observations that his defense has been sub par, which are also backed up by statistics. I'll ignore that the offense hasn't been as potent as it should be with Manu on the court. I'll just be thankful to have the privilege of watching The Untouchable perform while others are out to bring him down.
Goodnight.
Um... Manu is -4 in 59 minutes. That means we're losing .06 points every minute he's played.
Elson is -10 in 23 minutes. That's -.43 per minute.
You wanna tell me that -.43 and -.06 is almost the same thing?
You should give up because you're wrong. I never said he was the biggest key. I said both he and Tony should be able to score a lot against their men. If anything Tony is even more important because he has to guard AI most of the time.
And according to those same statistics you're sighting, Tony's defense has been even worse than Manu's. But thanks for playing.
@ you trying to act like a bad ass.
You are just a Manu homer of the likes that I've never encountered before. Most members of The Church can admit when Manu isn't playing his best and can *gasp* criticize his play.
Any time you even pretend to criticize Manu, it's always with a backhanded comment aimed at another Spur (usually Tony Parker). I've never seen anything quite like it.
I'm not sure what the root of your Manu obsession is but it's getting old. You point to per minute stats to back up your man and then refuse to give credence to per minutes stats when it's brought back on to you. You are quick to bash every other Spur and put Manu on the highest of high pedestals (Manu > Duncan during the 2005 playoffs, Manu has reached untouchable status, Manu should shoot more shots per year than Parker even though he usually plays 500 to 1000 less minutes per season
If you can't admit that Ginobili has been a disappointment so far in the playoffs, I'm not sure there is any hope for you. He's far from being the only disappointment so far (as I've said), but of course he's the only one you seem to read about or defend.
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